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    • 25663 MODX Staff
    • 12,272 Posts
    Once again, MODx is not and will not be target the ultimate site owners for the near future. We simply do not have the bandwidth or funding to support that type of crowd and maintain any semblance of a good experience.

    We DO have the bandwidth to work with advanced users who can help us over the next year or two get to that level though.

    If you’d like to turn over a boatload of money (high 6- to low 7-figures in USD), we can happily revise that outlook, staff up appropriately and move on. As it stands now this is a 100% volunteer effort.

    A major disproportionate amount of support effort goes to answering the same types of questions over and over again with less technically advanced users:

    + how do I install it on my IIS/Cheap shared server?
    + I have an error stating blah on line 47... help!
    + how do I format CSS?
    + what is a TV?
    + how do I use snippets?
    + etc.

    Advanced users act as filters to keep these things off our radar and provide the first level of support.

    Why doesn’t Monte Blanc sell pens in 12-packs at Staples? Why doesn’t Ferrari have a dealership next to every Ford/Chevy dealership?
      Ryan Thrash, MODX Co-Founder
      Follow me on Twitter at @rthrash or catch my occasional unofficial thoughts at thrash.me
      • 25663 MODX Staff
      • 12,272 Posts
      Put another way Bugsmi0, this is what we’re trying to mitigate:

      http://www.slash7.com/pages/vampires
        Ryan Thrash, MODX Co-Founder
        Follow me on Twitter at @rthrash or catch my occasional unofficial thoughts at thrash.me
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        • 345 Posts
        Help Vampires.

        LOL. Oh my gosh that is a funny site. I hadn’t seen that before.
          • 28373
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          Quote from: jbjones at May 16, 2006, 10:53 PM

          Help Vampires.

          LOL. Oh my gosh that is a funny site. I hadn’t seen that before.

          It’s quite a dark manner of thinking - true, still... with each foot comes a heel and walking without it makes a journey none the easier.
            • 33688
            • 54 Posts
            Quote from: rthrash at May 16, 2006, 11:57 AM

            A major disproportionate amount of support effort goes to answering the same types of questions over and over again with less technically advanced users:
            To me, this is an indication that maybe the documentation isn’t doing it’s job properly. Why not set up a FAQ Support section to answer those questions once and for all? And/or maybe you should create different levels of documentation, i.e. introductory stuff (for all those "less technically advanced users" that keep coming in whether you like it or not), intermediate stuff (for most users once they pass the introductory stage) and advanced stuff (for the real geeks).

            IMHO, propely elaborated documentation can alleviate the burden of support enormously. I for one asks questions in the forums only when I have to, when I can’t find the answers in the documentation. So if you feel you’re getting the same types of questions over and over again, maybe it’s high time you did an overhaul of the documentation to reflect the new situation?

            That’s my 2¢.

            Mats
              • 33337
              • 3,975 Posts
              Mats, Ryan said above and I again: "MODx is aimed at advance users", so Documentation is also written to target advance users smiley, we are getting questions like "how to do this in CSS" or "How to use DropMenu with CSS" etc. (its just example of few questions, not an attempt to pin point someone).

              Oh! and Search is your best friend! smiley

              I hope this makes sense.
                Zaigham R - MODX Professional | Skype | Email | Twitter

                Digging the interwebs for #MODX gems and bringing it to you. modx.link
                • 6726
                • 7,075 Posts
                Quote from: rthrash at May 16, 2006, 12:16 PM
                Put another way Bugsmi0, this is what we’re trying to mitigate: http://www.slash7.com/pages/vampires

                My my, how did I miss that one !

                LOL !!! So very true...
                We have to be careful !

                Quote from: Mats at May 17, 2006, 02:51 AM
                To me, this is an indication that maybe the documentation isn’t doing it’s job properly. Why not set up a FAQ Support section to answer those questions once and for all? And/or maybe you should create different levels of documentation, i.e. introductory stuff (for all those "less technically advanced users" that keep coming in whether you like it or not), intermediate stuff (for most users once they pass the introductory stage) and advanced stuff (for the real geeks).

                IMHO, propely elaborated documentation can alleviate the burden of support enormously. I for one asks questions in the forums only when I have to, when I can’t find the answers in the documentation. So if you feel you’re getting the same types of questions over and over again, maybe it’s high time you did an overhaul of the documentation to reflect the new situation?

                That’s my 2¢.
                Mats

                Mats Wall raises a valid point about documentation being able to help aleviate the load of the team. I agree the doc could be user oriented like in the WordPress Codex : advanced, intermediate, basic users... and also agree about a FAQ (I did one for the french forums).

                Yet, I’ve learned something in the various community I have contributed to : the benefits of a well thought-out and comprehensive documentation is not as high as you would expect sad Same goes for the FAQ, unfortunately (even if it’s more efficient than doc to aleviate the load).

                First, Help Vampires won’t read it tongue They’d rather have you quote it to them... and ask you twice the same question nonetheless...

                Second, writing documentation is harder than it seems : technical writing is an art, if you take into account the user-oriented part of it (which is a pre-requisite if you aim low skill users), then you get yourselve a big workload not only to write but also to maintain it (something pretty hard with MODx speedy development). The reasonnable thing to do then is to write a technical doc, that might not be user friendly and thus, won’t get the number of questions down on forums. Of course now, as Ryan says, if you have loads of cash to pay people to write user friendly doc, that’s another matter... but even if it was the case, I fail to see how it fits the goal of MODx which is to provide a highly versatile tool to skillful people. "Dumbed-down" (and thus rigid) web applications numerous enough as it is, and are precisely what we don’t want MODx to become otherwise it will loose the versatility we love so much.

                Now, does that mean the documentation should not improve ? Of course not. And if you watch closely, it does improve regularly. But my take on this is we should really boost the documentation process once MODx reach the 1.0 release. Things will change drastically in some areas and I’d rather see time spent in developping those amazing concepts that will be in 1.0 be done as fast and as well as possible. Also, I believe MODx should not aim to be end-user oriented, at least the core team should be able to stay focused on the core goal which is to build a highly versatile content management framework.

                Now if you browsed Starbuck’s modxhost.com, you have a good example of easy to read step by step tutorials which could do a lot to help less skilled users. But that’s a core contributor’s initiative, the team wouldn’t have the time to do something like this (and shouldn’t try). Same could be said of banzai’s templates.

                Does this mean we don’t want to help ?

                Sure no !

                But we just don’t have the resources to do so (though we answer a lot of those obvious and time consuming questions, it’s tempting since it’s so trivial to you you think "hey, that’ll only take me a minute to solve this for him". The thing is, at the end of the day minutes make up for hour or even hours... hours you don’t spent on your job on the team (lots overdue stuff in the marketing area, in my case... or earning your living).





                  .: COO - Commerce Guys - Community Driven Innovation :.


                  MODx est l'outil id
                  • 28373
                  • 204 Posts
                  Quote from: davidm at May 17, 2006, 04:44 AM

                  Now if you browsed Starbuck’s modxhost.com, you have a good example of easy to read step by step tutorials which could do a lot to help less skilled users. But that’s a core contributor’s initiative, the team wouldn’t have the time to do something like this (and shouldn’t try). Same could be said of banzai’s templates.

                  Thanks David - we’ve got ’much’ to add to modxhost but are holding off waiting to see if there’s more updates. We’ve got two biggies in the pipeline, blogging and RSS - actually we wanted to add forum integration but I can’t figure out where everyone’s at with that one.

                  Same with templates x 50, we have them, but time’s something of a crumb at the moment. It’s actually quite difficult to keep up with current affairs around here, one thing I would suggest that might help yourselves quite a lot - and that’s to introduce a rule that snippets aren’t published until the publisher has a live functioning example with documentation. Seriously, if you’ve built a snippet surely it’s been tested and you can rationalize how it works and document those thoughts.

                  Live examples give a lot more than the longest of explaination’s - and there’d be somewhere to point people who have difficulty understanding someone’s particular style of documentating information.

                  Plus, if each publisher is doing that then the work load spreads out considerably and in theory you shouldn’t immediately need a centralized hub where vampires wonder around sucking up all your time asking questions no one but the originator can, or should, be answering.

                    • 33688
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                    Quote from: zi at May 17, 2006, 04:09 AM

                    Mats, Ryan said above and I again: "MODx is aimed at advance users", so Documentation is also written to target advance users smiley
                    No wonder you get all these terrible newbie questions then, is it? Actually this statement begs the question: "What are you going to do with all the people coming in who are not as advanced as you should like them to be?" Are you going to show them the door and tell them: "Sorry, this is no place for you..."? Or maybe you should have every new member fill out an application form to check their level of experience to see if they’re advanced enough to join the club.

                    Seriously, you have to find a way to deal with the situation with increasing numbers of less experienced users joining the community. And my suggestion was (and is) to develop a FAQ Support section, and/or develop documentation leveled at the majority of people actually coming in! Somehow you have to deal with reality, not any utopian situation.

                    Quote from: zi at May 17, 2006, 04:09 AM

                    Oh! and Search is your best friend! smiley
                    Dear Zi, I hope this comment isn’t leveled at me personally just because I said I don’t ask questions in the forums until I have to, i.e. when I don’t find the answer in the documentation. Of course you have to search the forums before asking any support questions! In a development project like this it’s natural that the forums work as a secondary source of documentation. So when I say "documentation" I include the forums. Just so you know.

                    Best regards,
                    Mats
                      • 25663 MODX Staff
                      • 12,272 Posts
                      In all fairness, the forums search frequently sucks. Our documentation definitely needs to be improved, no doubt too! But when things are in such a state of rapid progress, it’s pretty pointless IMO.

                      We welcome the less advanced users with enthusiasm, but they must realize and accept that at this time we may not give the exact answers they want to hear. We’ll get there one day without a doubt, but it’s not looking too likely for the next couple of quarters. wink

                      Lots (and I mean LOTS) of exciting stuff in store folks!
                        Ryan Thrash, MODX Co-Founder
                        Follow me on Twitter at @rthrash or catch my occasional unofficial thoughts at thrash.me

                      This discussion is closed to further replies. Keep calm and carry on.