thank you david and sharkbait. i think i must have been seeing what i wanted to see as i thought the innerTpl got rid of those id=menu .
my innerTpl is as you suggested david,
<ul>
[+wf.wrapper+]
</ul>
my rowTpl is <li[+wf.classes+]><a href="[+wf.link+]">[+wf.linktext+]</a>[+wf.wrapper+]</li>
outerTpl is <ul id="menu">[+wf.wrapper+]</ul>
so it’s my outTpl buggering me up hey? if i made it <ul>[+wf.wrapper+]</ul> that’s not really gonna help is it.
sharkbait, i tried adding the ’color’ and didn’t work... so sorry, this must be as frustrating for you guys who can see the dumb things i’m just not getting as it is for me to not be getting them.

if i posted this as a job would it be better? am really feeling bad to be asking so much.