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    • 27708 MODX Staff
    • 2,502 Posts
    Xsss4hell,

    I don’t think that people here are suggesting that it be the devs who build these things. And there are people on the core team who would be more than happy to build such releases. Not to mention that it would be best if the bundled releases be okayed by the dev team.

    That being said, I think your idea about a thread or section on bundle examples is a good one. I think that what might also be good is a thread requesting input for packaged releases.

    There are a number of packaged releases that make instant sense such as a gallery site or a blog site. Others might be a paypal only cart site.

    ATB,

    Jay
      Author of zero books. Formerly of many strange things. Pairs well with meats. Conversations are magical experiences. He's dangerous around code but a markup magician. Blog ✦ Twitter ✦ LinkedIn ✦ GitHub
      • 22303 MODX Staff
      • 10,725 Posts
      Certainly appreciate the desire for out-of-the-box solutions/vertical distributions, but let’s have a quick sanity check here...

      First, this has been discussed recently in the thread Contact management (simple crm) -- it certainly has not been ignored as implied in an earlier response in this thread. But I am curious smashingred, who are you referring to as "people on the core team who would be more than happy to build such releases?"

      And thanks for this one: "[n]ot to mention that it would be best if the bundled releases be okayed by the dev team"; gave me a great idea for charging $150/hr for reviewing and deciding if I should put a stamp of approval on custom releases people submit. It’ll be fun, just like Sun with J2EE certifications. rolleyes

      I’m sorry, I don’t mean to make light of the naivety here, but I joined the MODx foundation for the same reason I started using Etomite (I had planned on contributing in the same manner there), which is because I love the tool and it helps me support my career, which is building and supporting custom web solutions. All I am trying to say here is, step back, and ask yourself, "what have I put into MODx?" "What has it given me back?" "Have I gotten out of MODx more than I put into it?"

      Fact is, there is an eco-system here within this community that works a lot like it does in the outside world. Just don’t expect that new features are going to appear for everyone’s benefit. Everything that has been produced for and contributed to MODx has been paid for in one way or another by someone, and I imagine that’s how it’s going to continue to work.

      So who’s going to sponsor/finance the construction of the blog distribution? I mean someone will have to make it worth a MODx developer’s time to make sure everyone can setup and maintain their own fully customizable, out-of-the-box blog, easy as 1-2-3, and without ever needing professional services or support, right?
        • 27226
        • 186 Posts
        Honestly, in my personal case I could reasonably say that I put more into MODx (time and money) than I’ve got back so far.
        Not MODx’ fault, of course, but mine wink ...
        I guess the idea behind the "out-of-the-box-thing" is fairly simple: Find a way to package an existing site/solution into a downloadable/installable file. This would just be a tool to
        a) remove the content (except some sample pages),
        b) add the installation-routine.
        That’s all. The rest would be on the risk of those who use it. No warranty or certification of the dev-team here. They should spend their MODx-time on development, not on distribution.
          • 34017
          • 898 Posts
          Jason,

          I agree with you. I think we, as the community, should make these. Example- in the J! community, one company takes the build and goes through the code to remove all of the ugly HTML and replaces it with less ugly validated CSS. (This is one helluva chore they provide as part of the community for the community).

          I think ya’ll are making one helluva framework and cms. It helps your business, and it helps ours. When pre-packaged MODx’s will help someone’s businesses so much that it is worth the time/effort, then I believe we will see these.

          I for one do not think it’ll be easy. But I think, in time, someone will do it.

          - 9.5
          - repository
          - wiki
          - user contributed resource manager and skinner

          In conclusion, I wanted to say when I speak of these things, I am saying that we as the community should use the tools provided to do it. Whether that be demo sites (Susan’s, Modxhost, learningmodx), wiki, or repositories.

          Chuck
            Chuck the Trukk
            ProWebscape.com :: Nashville-WebDesign.com
            - - - - - - - -
            What are TV's? Here's some info below.
            http://modxcms.com/forums/index.php/topic,21081.msg159009.html#msg1590091
            http://modxcms.com/forums/index.php/topic,14957.msg97008.html#msg97008
            • 27708 MODX Staff
            • 2,502 Posts
            Jason (OpenGeek),

            You are right. I was getting carried away as well as speaking for the core team, whom I have only exchanged posts with and observe at a distance. I think that, while it would be good to see the out of the box thing happen one day, I see that it must come from contribs vs. the core team whose job it is to build the next releases.

            That being said, I guess I should just get off my a$$ and contribute more than assumptive posts and a tiny snippit.

            Sorry for the temporary loss of sanity and short sitghted spasm. You and all the founders and core team have (I am sure) more than enough on your plates as it is.

            Most sincerely and appreciatively,

            Jay
              Author of zero books. Formerly of many strange things. Pairs well with meats. Conversations are magical experiences. He's dangerous around code but a markup magician. Blog ✦ Twitter ✦ LinkedIn ✦ GitHub
              • 22303 MODX Staff
              • 10,725 Posts
              I re-read my post from this morning: please don’t take my unintentional condescending tone the wrong way; my aim is not to discourage this kind of discussion. On the contrary, I just want to focus it first on the core concepts and features that are needed to start easily producing these kinds of distributions. At the same time, we certainly need contributors of all kinds for each vertical effort. I just believe how that materializes is going to depend on individual entrepreneurship, working in cooperation with the core team.

              Ultimately, I would love for MODx to become a full-time business where core team gets paid to focus 100% of their time on the core framework and helping others to craft great add-ons, vertical content distributions, and other value-add solutions that their own businesses can profit from; there are plenty of open-source business models to support this activity. It’s just a matter of time to get the infrastructure in place and some more interest from serious funding sources to make it a reality.
                • 32942
                • 141 Posts
                @OpenGeek and other Devs

                <moneytalk>
                I know whatta pain coding can be. It is a very time-consuming job to create "applications", which go through something like an evolution as time passes and the product matures. And the final result took so much time that of your life you wish you got paid for that. sad yea yea...

                I’d to code a php based chess realtime standard conform multiplayer tournament-system with additions like web-cents per won round and free sms etc..plus the smarty based design and css layout. Hey, my first job was to build a CMS system wink)))) *lol*
                whatta crazy luck I landed in these forums....

                Believe it or not I’d to work for 1 year for nothing!! A real fulltime job. But school calls that 1 year internship.
                Now It’s online and the boss I’d to code that for gets money for it. WTF..
                [edited by moderator: unnecessary profanity abbreviated as is typically acceptable]

                So, I would say <donate>MODx</donate>.
                But don’t make MODx fully commercial, although it would make things work much faster and better.
                And working for money makes happier than working for nuthin.
                I do not want to start a discussion ’bout that! It is my opinion!


                But you could think about implementing something like an ebay or myhammer like payment system for registered developers.
                And offer a MODx Support System for anyone on the world for money pumped livehelp and more. you know what I’m talkin about, the default marketing things like other cms systems do.
                1&1 (United Internet) offers reseller services. You could make something like that also. I mean every member who sells support for MODx gets X-Dollars. If you do so: I have a job for you wink
                </moneytalk>

                regards .X4
                  • 6726
                  • 7,075 Posts
                  Let me jump in on this one...

                  Every OS community is basically driven by two forces :

                  • The pull : contributors and users express needs, request new features, suggest alternate ways and contribute in many ways to shape the application. I would dub this "positive pull". The other side of the coin which I would dub "negative pull" is when users who don’t contribute much ask for more or try to have the tool fit what they need rather than check if the tool fits their need tongue Or else they make valid request but without any reality check (again, paraphrasing Jason) as to what kind of resources are needed to achieve it.
                  • The push : developpers and core contributors go about making their vision a reality, and the vision is often born out of a need for the tool they built, or the frustration of a tool which didn’t fit their needs. Of course the whole purpose of having a community is encouraging suggestion, sharing ideas, and such. I would call this "positive push". On the other hand, sometimes dev teams are geared toward keeping control of things, it’s "their" baby and no-one has to tell them how to raise it. Everyone has heard of the benevolent tyrant OS community syndrome. I have seen it happen... it’s bad. I’ll call this "negative push".

                  More often than not, what ends up happening is users get frustrated because they feel they are not heard and developpers get frustrated because the users don’t grasp what kind of work load development is or the underlying logic of an OS community which is share knowledge, time and passion to build a better tool than you’d have built on your own (Share means two ways tongue )

                  I really do think here @MODx we have the chance of having a very open team :

                  1) Open to new ideas and suggestion : how many bits of MODx code have been asked for or suggested by users ? Check bug reports and feature request and do the math : Lots ! I am always amazed at the community dynamics here : be it core team members or key contributors, there is always someone to pick up a good idea or suggestion and saying : let’s try it ! and more often than not, you get new code to solve your problem smiley It’s really amazing.

                  2) Open to new contributors : As I said earlier, I have been part of many communities and a few of them are as open as the MODx team. You have ideas, you are motivated, you have some time to dedicate and you want to make things happen ? There is more chance than not that eventually you’ll get a chance to be part of things. I sure can testify to it. But many others can say the same ! We have a pretty extended team, compared to similar young communities. The spirit is really good, people are passionate and talented there, really exciting to work in the MODx team.

                  I also happen to think we have positive push from the team and overall positive pull from the community. Of course you might say, the marketing guy jumps in and says it’s all rosy and nice and the team is really great. But I mean, I don’t have to do a lot of effort here, because it’s true ! I think we really do respect people’s view, even when they’re different and that’s a change if you browse some forums tongue

                  Now, about funding dev : as Jason said, you don’t need to go commercial to fund your project, there are indeed plenty of ways to fund your project intelligently, without compromising in any way the OS community and spirit. I don’t think going commercial would make things going faster and better (have a look at commercial solutions...rarely groundbreaking). What I do think is that providing resources to speed up and improve the development process while respecting the ecosystem as Jason puts it is the way to go.

                  You need to get organized to achieve a goal, and that means setting up the infrastructure, as Jason puts it. The key factor that makes it different from a commercial project is the goal which is not profit itself as an end but as a mean to a higher end (so to speak).

                  The decisive advantage of open source communities over commercial development is precisely :

                  • the openness : open systems are more efficient than closed ones, fresh views and thus innovation is more likely to happen, which is not true of "closed" / "boundary-ful" organizations.
                  • the motivation : commercial organization and their employees are motivated by money. OS communities’ contributors are motivated by passion. Is there any doubt passion brings a lot more to creativity than money ? For me : none.

                  Now this doesn’t mean that you can’t or shouldn’t make money. It just means this should never be first and foremost about making money... otherwise, you loose contributors, you loose the community’s feedback and the contributors’ dedication. Don’t worry, we are much aware of this, and too passionate about what we do to fall into this pit...

                    .: COO - Commerce Guys - Community Driven Innovation :.


                    MODx est l&#39;outil id
                    • 26435
                    • 1,193 Posts
                    Ahh David wink
                    Your Marklar are wise and true.
                    Well put my friend. I am blown away with your observations regarding push and pull. These are universally applicable principles, and a community with more positive of either tends to be more responsive, more responsible, and all around happier! grin

                    Nice post pal. You seem to be a constant mediator here that keeps many threads from heading to the dreaded flame bait basket.

                    -sD-
                    Dr. Scotty Delicious, Scientist.
                      Husband, Father, Brother, Son, Programmer, Atheist, Nurse, Friend, Lover, Fighter.
                      All of the above... in no specific order.


                      I send pointless little messages
                      • 27708 MODX Staff
                      • 2,502 Posts
                      DavidM,

                      Ahh, the light of clarity and perspective.

                      As I mentioned in my last post. I am going to put my money where my mouth is and start working to add something to the project, no matter how small.

                      All the best,

                      Jay
                        Author of zero books. Formerly of many strange things. Pairs well with meats. Conversations are magical experiences. He's dangerous around code but a markup magician. Blog ✦ Twitter ✦ LinkedIn ✦ GitHub