Why ExtJS-Tables are a usability mess

Quote from: Moondawgy at Jan 12, 2009, 01:24 PM

The ease of use of the current manager combined with the ManagerManager plugin make it a breeze and so simple to work with. When handing it over to clients as well, it becomes so intuitive to them and can be grasped in minutes.

ManagerManager could also be adapted to Revolution. Each field has an ID, just as 0.9.6. Also, ManagerManager is not a core MODx component, and therefore is irrelevant to this discussion.

Hi splittingred,

Thanks for your comments.

I believe ExtJS will provide some useful features however it should add and not hinder the user interface. As a designer I prefer clean clear labelling with room for reflection, structure is also important.

The SVN version addresses these issues.

Could you please let me know where this SVN can be downloaded, alternately a link to the latest demo admin would be even better.

The Table used in the System Settings page is quite hindering and the drop downs required to view helpful tips makes the whole process over complex and uncomfortable.

Can you explain? 0.9.6 also uses a table...

True splittingred, however 0.9.6 doesn’t use a ExtJS table. The table used within the Configuration page with 0.9.6 uses the table without concealing information with additional row and give more room for identifying setting sections, provinding a cleaner structure. I found the setting page within Revolution required scrolling and many additional mouse clicks to update settings.

I found it harder and required more attention and concentration just to navigate.

In reflection ExtJS is positive but should not force the interface design and should be used selectivity to support the admin user.

Revolution allows for completely separate managers, with entirely different markup. Developers post-release could easily make a less JS-based admin.

The options available to build our own admin interfaces excite me, however to compete within the Open Source CMS market, converting more users away from established systems like WordPress, Expression Engine and Joomla modx requires a default interface which is attractive, easy to use and universal. We could have an option for ExtJs with alternative admin template for users like myself who prefer a non ExtJs interface with more emphases on a visually clean design.

Developpers, maybe this is intresting for you: http://layout.jquery-dev.net/

I’m currently building a fairly heavy application with jQuery and I’m really beginning to understand the core devs decision in choosing ExtJS for modx revolution.

In my view jQuery is not yet ready to be used for really complex user interfaces out of the box; it’s getting there with the jQuery UI but it doesn’t provide the tried and tested tools that mature frameworks like ExtJS do. I expect the Ellis Labs guys will have hand crafted a lot of the user interaction for EE2, and I expect it will be beautiful - but that doesn’t mean it will be more usable or powerful.

Having said that, I too am not that sure about the current *look and feel* of the Revolution UI - but I understand that work is ongoing on the design. ExtJS can of course be themed (I rather like Slate):

http://extjs.com/blog/2008/03/03/can-ext-be-skinned-of-course/

Of course, ExtJs UI can be themed. But using a ExtJS-Table for preferences is still not userfriendly. Why?
Check this:

My issue with ExtJS is that it is way too rigid, if we look at the new Express Engine 2 UI it uses tables, but only were needed.

The modx Revolution sounds fantastic from a development view point, however the new proposed interface worries me as Moveable Type, WordPress and Express Engine all offer sexier interfaces. But oh well if I was a Joomla developer I would be even more concerned (off topic )

I believe to nail this issue down, a working group could be the best approach. After all the UI is second if not the most important factors for our clients when assessing a new CMS, is it easy to use? ExtJS isn’t sexy (an important part of selling any product) but is technically clever.

I guess this is were designers (visuals inspired) meets developers (technically inspired)

Good point. I’m ready for the "designer part". The whole discussion is not about a big problem. I just wanted to make clear the the extjs tables shouldent be implemented as they look basically.

As an additional note, I must say how elegant the code is behind the admin interface. Its very easy to customise so I’m sure lots of alternative templates will be available post launch

Quote from: modx at Jan 12, 2009, 05:21 PM

Could you please let me know where this SVN can be downloaded, alternately a link to the latest demo admin would be even better.

There are tons of posts all over the forums and the website. Please in the future take time to look them up, but for now:

SVN: http://svn.modxcms.com/svn/tattoo/tattoo/branches/revolution/

SVN Installation Notes: http://svn.modxcms.com/docs/display/revolution/Development+and+Testing+Notes

There is no public demo site available. One will be available post-release.

True splittingred, however 0.9.6 doesn’t use a ExtJS table.

So? It’s pretty much the same idea. 0.9.6 also doesn’t allow for custom settings to be integrated in.

The table used within the Configuration page with 0.9.6 uses the table without concealing information with additional row and give more room for identifying setting sections, provinding a cleaner structure.

Are you talking about descriptions? You can click the + icon for more information about each setting.

I found the setting page within Revolution required scrolling and many additional mouse clicks to update settings.

0.9.6’s Configuration page requires both scrolling and mouse clicks.

I found it harder and required more attention and concentration just to navigate.

Probably for the best - this is a site-wide system settings panel: you shouldn’t be whimsily clicking around anyway, and should be concentrating more on what you’re doing.

The options available to build our own admin interfaces excite me, however to compete within the Open Source CMS market, converting more users away from established systems like WordPress, Expression Engine and Joomla modx requires a default interface which is attractive, easy to use and universal. We could have an option for ExtJs with alternative admin template for users like myself who prefer a non ExtJs interface with more emphases on a visually clean design.

1. Please check the SVN version. It has already been styled cleaner.
2. By eliminating ExtJS, you will sacrifice loads of usability for a small amount of visual pep.
3. Do you plan to offer some comps that detail such a design improvement, without losing the flexibility and usability in the current SVN manager?

Re: your image
Quote from: flughund at Jan 13, 2009, 07:10 AM

Why sorting?

To allow for dynamic sorting. Why not? This is a huge usability addition.

Quote from: flughund at Jan 13, 2009, 07:10 AM

Are these "names" or values?

Well, they’re in the column "names", so I would assume...

Quote from: flughund at Jan 13, 2009, 07:10 AM

No optical help...

They can be styled to do that.

Quote from: flughund at Jan 13, 2009, 07:10 AM

Yes/No settings = radio buttons.

This is debatable - some actually prefer Yes/No. And radio buttons can be done, as well.