Why ExtJS-Tables are a usability mess

Ok, I know you guys are fan of the flexible and fast ExtJS-Tables for the settings in the new MODx Revolution (see attachement). But I dont like this funky tables for settings! Why?

Because:

• basically the style (a lot of glossyness, a lot of areas)
• a huge overhead for the sorting, columnames etc. (who needs sorting here?)
• too much "on the fly" configuration things I dont need
• too much colums (I dont need to know always "last update" and "key" for ex)
• its not intuitive to doubleclick in a webbrowser for editing
• after leave a field its automatically updating a setting - so if I made a mistake...
• to simple choose a "yes/no" option I had to click 5 times!

I would prefer a more proper setting page just in HTML (see 2. screenshot from mobileMe). I know, its not as easy as this ExtJs tables to implement but think about.

I know all is discussable. So lets start!

flughund:

You already brought up your dislike for the settings grids in another thread. Is it really necessary to continue with this without providing a functional equivalent idea that provides a dynamic number and type of settings to be managed as quickly and easily?
Quote from: flughund at Dec 27, 2008, 02:41 AM

• basically the style (a lot of glossyness, a lot of areas)

The styles can change.
Quote from: flughund at Dec 27, 2008, 02:41 AM

• a huge overhead for the sorting, columnames etc. (who needs sorting here?)

Overhead where? And sorting is very convenient IMO, along with the filter feature to help find what you are looking for quickly.
Quote from: flughund at Dec 27, 2008, 02:41 AM

• too much "on the fly" configuration things I dont need

What does that mean?
Quote from: flughund at Dec 27, 2008, 02:41 AM

• too much colums (I dont need to know always "last update" and "key" for ex)

That is important information for MODx administrators.
Quote from: flughund at Dec 27, 2008, 02:41 AM

• its not intuitive to doubleclick in a webbrowser for editing

I will agree here, but this experience can be improved most likely...
Quote from: flughund at Dec 27, 2008, 02:41 AM

• after leave a field its automatically updating a setting - so if I made a mistake...

I’m torn on this, but think I agree with you. On one hand, I’d hate to forget to save changes to something I changed on a tab I clicked away from, and on the other I’d like the extra time to think about what I’m gonna do before really embarking on it. In some cases you may want to reconfigure several options before actually applying those changes
Quote from: flughund at Dec 27, 2008, 02:41 AM

• to simple choose a "yes/no" option I had to click 5 times!

Again, I think the in-line editing experience can be improved.
Quote from: flughund at Dec 27, 2008, 02:41 AM

I would prefer a more proper setting page just in HTML (see 2. screenshot from mobileMe). I know, its not as easy as this ExtJs tables to implement but think about.

Seems to me this is more about styling than anything.

Ok, thanx for your answers. If you programmers prefer this ExtJS-tables - do it. If the big work which you all do/did for that CMS should be go around the world like a "revolution" I just will warn you as a UI-designer, that the styling and functionality of the backend should be simpler and not just like a ExpressionEngine-Fake mixed with ExtJS. But now I will stop feedbacking because a) the styling seems not be finished and b) we have difficult thinking about usability. Maybe the revolution is one for programmers and not for graphic designers with a little programming knowhow.

Is it really necessary to continue with this without providing a functional equivalent idea that provides a dynamic number and type of settings to be managed as quickly and easily?

Hm. No.

flughund,

I appreciate your POV regarding ExtJS as the manager interface basis but in addition to the UI not being entirely finished, the UI for the Manager is to be decoupled from the core so in theory it will be possible to build out themes or alternative Manager Contexts that would work better for some people. ExtJS does increase the speed with which many elements can be implemented and interactions can be built.

I personally feel that the jury is out on the UI. I’ve mused about building it in HTML/CSS/jQuery but there are limitations to that with regard to permissions in the UI frames. But I have never attempted it because the Manager Context is still under construction and more importanly a means to an end. It could be entirely different as a new version comes to light because there is so much going on in the world of JS UIs One thing that can’t be gotten around (not should it) is the JS portion. Building an app of the complexity of MODx Revolution w/o JS and AJAX would tremendously slow the UX due to HTTP request actions. BUT I love to be proved wrong. If someone wanted to build a pure HTML/CSS manager context go for it.

Cheers and thanks for your passion for MODx.

Jay

Quote from: flughund at Dec 27, 2008, 10:42 AM

If you programmers prefer this ExtJS-tables - do it. If the big work which you all do/did for that CMS should be go around the world like a "revolution" I just will warn you as a UI-designer, that the styling and functionality of the backend should be simpler and not just like a ExpressionEngine-Fake mixed with ExtJS.

As a stakeholder in many MODx deployments, this has nothing to do with being a programmer. It has to do with being able to balance fine-grained control over the functionality of the framework with simplicity and usability in the interface. We are always looking for ways to simplify without sacrificing capabilities. I’ve never even seen EE so I will not comment on the EE-fake statement...

Quote from: flughund at Dec 27, 2008, 10:42 AM

But now I will stop feedbacking because a) the styling seems not be finished and b) we have difficult thinking about usability. Maybe the revolution is one for programmers and not for graphic designers with a little programming knowhow.

Is it really necessary to continue with this without providing a functional equivalent idea that provides a dynamic number and type of settings to be managed as quickly and easily?

Hm. No.

It was not my intention to stop the feedback, but rather to focus it on a) how we can improve the settings grid experience and/or b) provide specific alternative ideas for achieving similar functionality without the ExtJS grids. IOW, I was hoping you would focus on the specifics and not on my initial response in which I was asking for specific ideas in way that was probably not as friendly as it could have been; my apologies for the way that came across.

Thanx OpenGeek and Smashingred. Under the line: I will wait before I focus on feedbacks to such things. Sorry, Im really new to this forum and all that revolution stuff. So it was not easy forme to guess how are the revo is already done.

But after all my critics: THE REVOLUTION WILL BE GREAT! I tested the installation of the packages and the parameters for ALL. Just great!

There’s a lot I like about the current Manager UI, but here are a few things I hate:

No Cut-and-paste. I can’t highlight things in the browser and paste them elsewhere. I can’t tell you how many times this has ticked me off.

Browser page search doesn’t work right. Often I know what I want on a page, but not where it is, and the fastest way to get there is to type "CTRL-F" | keyword | enter. This is especially true on complex lists of properties or system settings where individual items are hard to find. Even where there’s a filter (and there isn’t for properties), my method is infinitely faster (if it worked).

The missing tree and drop-down menu has already been mentioned, but these also annoy me on a daily basis. I thought I would get used to the current non-drop-down menu, but I haven’t.

I would have to agree with flughund, being new to modx I personally found the 0.9.6 interface much easier to use than Revolution.

I believe ExtJS will provide some useful features however it should add and not hinder the user interface. As a designer I prefer clean clear labelling with room for reflection, structure is also important. The Table used in the System Settings page is quite hindering and the drop downs required to view helpful tips makes the whole process over complex and uncomfortable.

However I do like the left panel, it provides a good way to quickly view templates files etc.

In reflection ExtJS is positive but should not force the interface design and should be used selectivity to support the admin user.

I also have to agree with modxpowered and flaghund.

The ease of use of the current manager combined with the ManagerManager plugin make it a breeze and so simple to work with. When handing it over to clients as well, it becomes so intuitive to them and can be grasped in minutes.

I must say that I stopped trying out the alpha due to the admin, as us from the UK say, it was ’doing my head in’. The new left panel works well but the rest, well just annoyed the hell out of me. But I am just one person and all opinions are valid!

I am looking forward to more talented programmers than me creating a less JS orientated manager.

Just my 2 pence..

Quote from: modx at Jan 12, 2009, 12:06 PM

I believe ExtJS will provide some useful features however it should add and not hinder the user interface. As a designer I prefer clean clear labelling with room for reflection, structure is also important.

The SVN version addresses these issues.

The Table used in the System Settings page is quite hindering and the drop downs required to view helpful tips makes the whole process over complex and uncomfortable.

Can you explain? 0.9.6 also uses a table...

In reflection ExtJS is positive but should not force the interface design and should be used selectivity to support the admin user.

Revolution allows for completely separate managers, with entirely different markup. Developers post-release could easily make a less JS-based admin.