The Loop is something we have discussed a few times already, this is going to be put in motion progressively. 
Target now:
I don’t think we’re remotely ready for the general masses. But for those looking for a solid CMS platform that doesn’t force you into any particular way of thinking, MODx will be a great choice.
Definitely agreed there. But is that where we want to be or do we want to stay with the programmers?
I see pros/cons both ways.
MODX Staff
It’s not about an ultimate target of end user or programmer. It’s about who our targets should be at this stage in our evolution as a web design, development, deployment, and maintenance tool, which ultimately is what MODx is. In order to support the broad end user market, we need more time to refine some of the core API’s, polish the installation and update facilities, attract more seasoned PHP, Javascript, AJAX, and other web experts to help develop more components that will be easy for end-users to use out of the box, attract more advanced users that will contribute end-user documentation as they figure things out, and just more time to mature in general. In other words, evolving into an end-user tool too quickly could be just as problematic for MODx as not doing it fast enough.
find a middle ground, I can see Modx as a great learning environment for newbies, even for those who want to learn more about programming, web development, SEO, etc. To taylor to programmers only is a very small market instead teach Modx users to be jr programmers or jr css magicians. Only a programmer will want to target programmers, it’s not about the programmers it’s about the people who are browsing the web in search of a CMS for their needs. (End User) is the one searching for better way, its a broad market.
MODX Staff
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MODX Staff
... if it all goes to teaching newbies how to style an unordered list in a certain way for all browsers, then there’s nothing left for MODx!
Non-seasoned end users are decisively not our end target, nor do I honestly suspect they will be anytime soon. The honest reality is that the dev team has devoted their time (thousands and thousands of hours at this point), because we need the tool in our respective businesses. While we try to keep end-users in mind for a long term goal, the harsh reality is we have to put food on our families’ plates. (...) But we will get there in due course.
We are a friendly bunch, and like to be helpful, but there are limits to the time and energy we have to give to this project, and if it all goes to teaching newbies how to style an unordered list in a certain way for all browsers, then there’s nothing left for MODx!
(but not the only one... Textpattern has the same strategy but a team too small and leaderless to get the same kind of progress done...).
Quote from: rthrash at Mar 23, 2006, 09:49 PMNon-seasoned end users are decisively not our end target, nor do I honestly suspect they will be anytime soon. The honest reality is that the dev team has devoted their time (thousands and thousands of hours at this point), because we need the tool in our respective businesses. While we try to keep end-users in mind for a long term goal, the harsh reality is we have to put food on our families’ plates. (...) But we will get there in due course.
Thanks Ryan for summing this all up so well, lots of food for my marketing kit
Quote from: sottwell at Mar 23, 2006, 10:27 PMWe are a friendly bunch, and like to be helpful, but there are limits to the time and energy we have to give to this project, and if it all goes to teaching newbies how to style an unordered list in a certain way for all browsers, then there’s nothing left for MODx!
Exactly ! You make a good point, even if I spend a bit of time helping those end users on the french side, I think it might be smarter for me to spend more time focusing on marketing issues. Then again keeping in touch with users is of the essence... I guess the thing is for me to spend more time attracting second tier users (e.g professionnal or savvy users) rather than answer "obvious" questions on the french side from end users... food for thought. Or else translate some doc to then have those users rely on doc rather than ask on forums...
Anyway, the fact that we are friendly and never talk down to people is a testimony to the fact that not supporting end users or non-seasonned people is not a question of not willing to do it, but a question of strategy and focus on what matters...
I think it was one of the things that got me jumping in the adventure in the first place, because when you look at many OS projects, I think they got down the "end user" road too early and that’s one of the reasons this project is moving on ten times the speed of other OS projects
I am very excited by the progress made and the prospect of the future... I know some (like frenchfrog) think it’s elitist but I’d rather say, like Ryan, that it’s realistic and sound if we’re going to make it sustainable in the long run...
How should I say this.
Basically the vision, plan, and roadmap is so true. I’m not saying not supporting end-users will be a great idea, but everything need to be in their right place and moment. Currently the gorwth of MODx need to be maintained for it to be able to support and generate more seasoned programmers/designers like what Jason said before. So with this, we can have a more powerful system that not only looks good on the outside, but it LOOKS GOOD ON THE INSIDE. I would say a system like Joomla! or Mambo is ready for the end user target, considering the vast amount of 2nd tier users on their community.
From what I can see in this Open Source System, core users won’t even bother about the end users at all, what they care more is advanced users. They are interested more in looking for partner to help them use the system in a better manner and to provide a valuable feedback in improving the system. While on the other side of the coin, this partnership build up enough loyalty to the second tier users/advanced users to feel that they owe something to the community. When the amount of this loyal partners/advanced users increase, they will try whatever that they can do give back to community, which some of them is supporting the comunity by providing a valuable support to the end users. Now we are still on the first stage, which the amont of this loyal advanced users is not big enough to either support the end users or support the core users by giving donations or some other things to raise money.
For now I would definetely say that we are on the right track. Sorry to all the end users. I’m as one of the second tier users will try as much as I could to help y’all, but the fact is, I got my own life as well that I need to support. Hope with my little time that I have for this community, will be valuable to some of y’all. I’m saying this because if there is a will, there will always be a way. Even though they are the end users who knows nothing about web technology, but if they are eager and loyal, I would totally love to have them around in here. First, they can be a good assets in providing a really valuable feedback that we the end users sometimes won’t be able to see it, and second, they will grow more into advanced users level, which I would like to be able to invest my little bit of time for them.
Pardon for my english, my mind is not that straight right now
This discussion is closed to further replies. Keep calm and carry on.