MODx - End user target | MODX Community Forums

54 Posts

Zzzeke Reply #101, 17 years, 11 months ago

Quote from: rthrash at May 17, 2006, 05:29 PM

And I look forward to your FAQ next week Mats.

That put me straight! lipsrsealed

I use to teach my kids when they criticize something, if you’re not willing to be part of the solution, keep your mouth shut! Seems I have to learn my own lesson – yet again. tongue

Seriously, writing a FAQ Support section would be better served by a small team effort lead by someone knowledgeable in all the ins and outs of MODx, in editorial work and who has a gift for writing pedagogically. As for myself I know something about 2 and 3, as I happen to be a literary translator by profession. But since English is not my mother tongue, I’m always very hesitant to do any official writing in a foreign language. As for #1, well... you know my level of experience with MODx when it still spells "Newbie" to the left of this post. grin

But if you need any help in the future, please feel free to ask. I’d be willing to help out maybe at least as a junior contributor.

Best regards,
Mats

54 Posts

Zzzeke Reply #102, 17 years, 11 months ago

@ScottyDelicious:

Dear Scotty,
I must say I greatly respect the journey you’ve made to become proficient in XHTML/CSS/PHP. I also approve of the way you challenge me to do the same journey as you did. Actually, I might take up that challenge and pick up that unfinished Teaching Yourself PHP book that’s been collecting dust on my bookshelf for the last two years.

But your inflammatory speech (if I may call it that) doesn’t solve the basic problem what to do with all the new members coming in who are not as proficient as you would like them to be. You can’t tell each and every one of them to go learn XHTML/CSS/PHP or go find yourself some other CMS, can you? Maybe *you* can, but I still contend that this *can* be a very damaging way to make MODx known to a wider audience.

I also find this "end user" talk a bit confusing. To me there are *three* broader sections of people coming to MODx: 1) Newbies with limited experience even with XHTML/CSS; 2) Newbies who are more or less fluent in XHTML/CSS but who are not programmers per se (I consider myself belonging to this category); 3) Newbies who already knows XHTML/CSS/PHP and only need a CMS to make their life a whole lot easier. (You, Scotty, might argue for a fourth category, the ones bent on climbing from the second to the third level. But in my judgement this is are fairly rare specimen!) I know there are probably 15 or 16 shades of grey within each category, but IMO this description fairly well reflects the current situation.

Now, I keep hearing voices claiming that MODx is only for the third group. IMHO I think it would be unwise from a marketing point of view to put off the second category (the intermediates if I may call them so) and cherish only the "advanced" users. Why? Because people can grow to become more proficient with a little help from a nurturing community (and from good documentation!), and also because I can see a commercial future for the MODx core team, setting up a paid support business serving this intermediate category of users. I for one would gladly pay a yearly fee to get premium support from people who can deliver specific answers to my more intricate questions. I’m pretty sure a business like this could be set up today and be profitable from day one.

One more thing, Scotty – and I’m saying this in a good mood, so please don’t be offended – but I resent your suggestion that if I only make the effort to learn enough PHP to be able to "read the comments" things would be s-o-o-o much different. I can tell you I know enough PHP to get around in an .inc file, but sometimes this still doesn’t help. And you know very well that this is the case sometimes. It’s not always easy to find answers to a specific question even if you hoover the documentation, the forums and the php files. And of course, this is understandable considering the heavy development stage MODx is going through. But please don’t assume people are indolent or are in the wrong place just because they have a different point of view from yours!

Best regards,
Mats

EDIT: And my status just changed to Jr. Member, which was the actual goal of this long post! (Just kidding...)

MODX Staff
12,272 Posts

Ryan Thrash Reply #103, 17 years, 11 months ago

Quote from: Mats at May 18, 2006, 01:06 PM

I also find this "end user" talk a bit confusing. To me there are *three* broader sections of people coming to MODx: 1) Newbies with limited experience even with XHTML/CSS; 2) Newbies who are more or less fluent in XHTML/CSS but who are not programmers per se (I consider myself belonging to this category); 3) Newbies who already knows XHTML/CSS/PHP and only need a CMS to make their life a whole lot easier. (You, Scotty, might argue for a fourth category, the ones bent on climbing from the second to the third level. But in my judgement this is are fairly rare specimen!) I know there are probably 15 or 16 shades of grey within each category, but IMO this description fairly well reflects the current situation.

As do I really... To me, I boil it down even more simply:

1) those that get it or are willing to try really hard (users actually proficient in CSS do fall here IMO ... the advnaced designers mentioned here on occasion), and that ask intelligent questions after searching via Google and via SMF (SMF’s search sometimes leaves something to be desired)

2) those that don’t and ask lots of tangentially related questions about CSS and basic server issues ... these are the vampires that basically want you to build their site for them step-by-step even if they don’t realize it

Now, I keep hearing voices claiming that MODx is only for the third group. IMHO I think it would be unwise from a marketing point of view to put off the second category (the intermediates if I may call them so) and cherish only the "advanced" users. Why? Because people can grow to become more proficient with a little help from a nurturing community (and from good documentation!), and also because I can see a commercial future for the MODx core team, setting up a paid support business serving this intermediate category of users. I for one would gladly pay a yearly fee to get premium support from people who can deliver specific answers to my more intricate questions. I’m pretty sure a business like this could be set up today and be profitable from day one.

Actually, this is coming.

EDIT: And my status just changed to Jr. Member, which was the actual goal of this long post! (Just kidding...)

And for your initiation, start making a list of FAQ questions... even if you don’t have the answers, the list will be helpful. We’ll add them to http://modxcms.com/faq or some semblance thereof. You brought this on yourself, you know! tongue

(and I’d really appreciate it honestly... )

Ryan Thrash, MODX Co-Founder
Follow me on Twitter at @rthrash or catch my occasional unofficial thoughts at thrash.me

711 Posts

Yogui3 Reply #104, 17 years, 11 months ago

I did not read all the post because it is very too long....

However, Modx is not adapted to all the users, it is right. But, currently, it is not the purpose.
Modx is young, very young for a project like it. There are many features, the core code is very stable and there is only few bug. This bugs are not important, not dangerous, etc...

Modx is currently for the "professionals" or "semi-professionals" of the Internet. The end users, the people who don’t know CSS and (X)HTML and who don’t learn them can’t use Modx is sure. Modx is a great CMS, very flexible. All is possible with it when you know PHP. If you know only CSS/HTML, you can do about all, according to what currently exists.

If you search a CMS for end users, Modx is not yet ready. And the resources either. Modx is only the core system. It can be ready but if the resources are not, the problem is the same : the end users will have difficulties... It would be necessary that the resources included an installator by defeault (or a similar principle), that the translations are easily realizable and addable, that the configuration is done by an interface, etc... but even with all this, the user will have to put the hands in the code to manage the calls to the resources… cause of the flexibility of Modx ! its force is also its handicaps.

The Modx community is very fast to answer if users have some problem to do this or that

Sorry for my english. I'm french... My dictionary is near me, but it's only a dictionary !

54 Posts

Zzzeke Reply #105, 17 years, 11 months ago

Quote from: rthrash at May 18, 2006, 01:38 PM

And for your initiation, start making a list of FAQ questions... even if you don’t have the answers, the list will be helpful. We’ll add them to http://modxcms.com/faq or some semblance thereof. You brought this on yourself, you know! (and I’d really appreciate it honestly... )

You ARE serious, aren’t you? laugh

Okay, I pay the penalty for bringing this up by opening a new topic in "General MODx Discussions" to start collecting Newbie FAQs. (If a Forum moderator please could make it sticky, I would be very grateful.)

Mats

7,075 Posts

davidm Reply #106, 17 years, 11 months ago

Quote from: Guillaume at May 18, 2006, 01:44 PM

Modx is currently for the "professionals" or "semi-professionals" of the Internet. The end users, the people who don’t know CSS and (X)HTML and who don’t learn them can’t use Modx is sure. Modx is a great CMS, very flexible. All is possible with it when you know PHP. If you know only CSS/HTML, you can do about all, according to what currently exists.

Great way to put it, as it happens I fall into the last category, XHTML/CSS guy. I repeat : I only have php basics, not much more... But as Scotty says, once you start playing with MODx you have a great incentive to learn PHP (and great examples, too, clean and commented code helps learning !), get the added flexiblity level needed to build custom solution for your client...

Right now, as I said, with a little brain and XHTML/CSS skills, you can do a LOT with MODx and no PHP skills... I wouldn’t want some people who don’t know MODx to think you have to be a php guru to use it and make nice things with it, because it’s not true ! Nor would I like newcomers to think we are some kind of closed-minded elite bunch, because this community is one of the most open and helpful you’ll find !

In fact, if you want to build custom websites, it’s way harder in Joomla or Typo3 with no PHP skills !!! Especially since as a designer you just can’t make custome templates without touching PHP. MODx has no such limitations with good content/presentation separation, clean standard compliant code, placeholders... you name it !

As Ryan says, lots of questions are indirect (basic) XHTML or CSS questions... there are forums for that... we can not spread our efforts too wide, or we’ll loose focus and stop having the edge that we have today !

.: COO - Commerce Guys - Community Driven Innovation :.

MODx est l'outil id

37 Posts

DusX Reply #107, 17 years, 10 months ago

I simply see in modX the potential to be my next ’Director’
I spent years developing multimedia using macromedia Director, and I must say that the authoring environment and the tools at hand where very easy to use.
I feel that modX is more of a web authoring environment rather than a CMS.

I would love to see Gui’s for things like adding available snippets and associated params..
also for writing snippets. (Gui’s / wizards for access to all modX system functions and other snippets)
the ability to create packages (modules) without having to leave the system.

I get the sense, after looking at many other systems typo3 and phpwcms among the best of them, that modX has the beginnings of being the tool to empower the entertainment level programmer (I’m that I think). Meaning I can code, understand OO and databases and more, but I am mostly focused on interfacing advanced interactivity and content with the end user.. and really can’t afford to start from scratch.. that is the power of this system.. it will empower tech/artists.

MODX Staff
12,272 Posts

Ryan Thrash Reply #108, 17 years, 10 months ago

Great analogy DusX! laugh

Ryan Thrash, MODX Co-Founder
Follow me on Twitter at @rthrash or catch my occasional unofficial thoughts at thrash.me

3,975 Posts

Zaigham (aka zi) Reply #109, 17 years, 10 months ago

Quote from: rthrash at Jun 20, 2006, 12:29 PM

Great analogy DusX!

Ditto! lol

Nice input DusX!

Zaigham R - MODX Professional | Skype | Email | Twitter

Digging the interwebs for #MODX gems and bringing it to you. modx.link

1 Posts

Zombie Reply #110, 17 years, 10 months ago

In fact, if you want to build custom websites, it’s way harder in Joomla or Typo3 with no PHP skills !!! Especially since as a designer you just can’t make custome templates without touching PHP. MODx has no such limitations with good content/presentation separation, clean standard compliant code, placeholders... you name it !

You’re bloody well damn right! laugh

Working with modX is really Big Fun! I never had such a pleasure and easy "quick wins" with another system.
After you have mastered the initial problems, mainly understanding the basic concepts behind snippets, TVs and all that stuff, its simply great to have that tool. Those initial problems could be dramatically reduced, I think, if there was a little collection of tutorials based on typical "Use Cases" (be honest: there isn’t such a broad range of different websites. And this is ok, since due to this phenomenon, as an enduser, you can learn from one site for another)
And for the target-group: I guess mainly small web-developers will benefit from modX, esp. in the competition with the bigger ones and their slow, expensive, complicated semi-commercial typo3, drupal, joomla! projects.

just my 2 cents...