Can one MODX rule them all?

Maybe my opinion doesn’t hold much value since I never used evo but still…
I really don’t get the whole ”revo is for big sites “ or “it has 400files”. As I said earlier I can easily show you few revo installs running on a shared server with no problem especially with the constantly growing faster internet connections and “limitless” host bandwidth. So what that it has 4k files? You can’t wait few seconds more to upload?.
As for the whole evo concept I think it’s similar with windows xp or maybe a better example IE. I don’t even want to start counting hours spent on applying IE tweaks, and still a majority uses IE 7 or IE8. M$ had lunch a whole campaign to kill of IE6. On the other hand you have chrome which updates automatically. Which one is better from the developer point of view? Revo is going to be 2 in July, and isn’t a good time to let go?

It just also happens to be a little bulky right now. But those things can be fixed if we work together on them as a team.

Unfortunately things often don't move form bulky to svelte.
But they could - a rewrite of the revo manager anyone?

a divided community as the worst possible outcome from all of this.
Community is what separates good open source from bad, and it's the one thing we can't afford to lose.

I generally find the community to excellent around these parts - but it is already divided in a way, I know that usually if I open a post and discover it is about evo I am likely not to have a clue how to answer unless of course it really is not a question about evo but about html/css/whatever; so I tend to ignore "evo" posts

I agree with what a lot of the Evo supporters are wanting, but a united front just makes so much more sense to me.

Is it not possible to have a "United Front" and still want to improve/add features to evo.

Maybe we need to define what a "United Front" is!!!

Instead of forming teams and creating two so-so products

Does forming teams and developing two products necessarily create two so-so products. I don't see that the folks wanting to work on evo are going to work on revo if they are somehow stopped from working on evo.

sI think we should work together to create one freakin' awesome flagship product.

By 'freakin' awesome flagship product' I assume you mean revo, and while that is fine with me since it is what I use (presently at least) I think that there are those that truly believe that evo is a better path for them, and they could be right!

That's what it will take for MODx to truly start competing with the big boys.

If that is what you want to do.
I should probably ask that what MODX is competing for be defined. Hard to develop a flagship product and get people to sign on and help without knowing where we are going.

Oh and as I type "flagship" I am thinking that this implies more than one, so perhaps there is place for a lighter weight, easier to use, does 95% of the same things faster product, - of course maybe this should be the flagship product and the other could be the "Battleship" product

Hey Jason,

I think the fact that there are over 5,000 downloads of evo 1.06 show that there are hundreds if not 1000's of people are not satisfied with Revo for one reason or another. To ask those people to rally around a solution they have misgivings about feels like you are missing the point. Revo just plain ain't going to make them happy. It is too big and too slow. Until it dumps EXT.js and works faster, people won't convert. I love MODX. There, I said it. But I also don't understand why the new version runs slower than the old. I am no expert, but I'd assume if you told most consumers that you were developing a new product that would work slower than they one they currently use, they wouldn't want it.

Just my two cents.

I look forward to the time when revo DOES work faster than evo. I'm also looking forward to a time when we're all moving in the same direction.

As far as evo goes, I think most of people wanting to improve are looking for involvement from the core team. I think they want help. Without a lot of input and oversight, it feels like they are sick of waiting.

Again just my two cents.

Many Thanks,

Noah

Unfortunately things often don't move form bulky to svelte.
But they could - a rewrite of the revo manager anyone?

Who says they can't? If people hate Revo's manager, clone the whole thing on Git and fix it. That still makes more sense to me than rewriting Evo. What happens when people don't like the new, rewritten Evo? We fork that and end up with a fourth MODx? Have you SEEN Multiplicity?!? ;-)

I know that usually if I open a post and discover it is about evo I am likely not to have a clue how to answer unless of course it really is not a question about evo but about html/css/whatever; so I tend to ignore "evo" posts

But didn't you say you started using MODx as a Revo user? I'm sue there are people like you whose first MODx experience was Revo, but there are still plenty of folks on the forums who ask and answer questions about both, myself included.

By 'freakin' awesome flagship product' I assume you mean revo, and while that is fine with me since it is what I use (presently at least) I think that there are those that truly believe that evo is a better path for them, and they could be right!

I probably didn't explain my point very well. Maybe the Evo folks are right. Maybe the Revo folks are right. It's open source; can't they both be right, but still unite behind one product? I know having a "core team" means the project has a focus in the direction of Revo. That doesn't mean Revo's current incarnation has to be the "flagship product," and it also doesn't mean Revo is some sort of monolithic beast that can't be reworked by the community to better meet everyone's needs and incorporate some of Evo's awesomeness.

I'm not trying to be the "can't we all just get along?" guy here, but I guess bottom line, that's what I mean. I just think there are some real dangers in not coming to somewhat of a consensus, or at bare minimum coexisting.

So what that it has 4k files? You can’t wait few seconds more to upload?.

Well its not a few seconds - its go and have a sandwich and a cup of coffee time. I am on a not too fast DSL connection*, but that's what is available in my neck of the woods!
And why I'm concerned with 4000+ files is the complexity, and interactions of all those files can easily give rise to odd bugs - you know, like compress_js settings or php v mysql time settings, a lot of forum time and frustrated user time was wasted before the latest update fixed things. And there was 2.1.5 coming out immediately after 2.1.4 - I don't know the details but it seems it could be a testing problem or 'brittle code' both of which are made more difficult with a larger more complex code base.

As I said earlier I can easily show you few revo installs running on a shared server with no problem especially with the constantly growing faster internet connections and “limitless” host bandwidth.

I know revo will run small sites on hosted servers I've done it, am doing it. But remember not everyone is on a fast connection, and it is still not good practice to waste bandwidth/resources AND a good, non-bloated, efficient interface is so nice to use regardless of the connection speed (slow connection and its almost a requirement, fast connection and it is a joy to use.

Revo is going to be 2 in July, and isn’t a good time to let go?

preface - I don't use evo.
But I do use BBedit, and Filezilla and the terminal and NOT Dreamweaver - more complex, slicker, more 'capable' is not always better.
So No it is not necessarily time to let go.
IE6 v later IEs is not a good comparison. Comparing Vim, or Emacs to Eclipse or Notepad or whatever (I know apples to oranges to a feast to MacDonald's) would be better. Evo and Revo are tools - one should pick tools based on the job to be done.
If Evo can get the job done then no you do not need to let go, if evo can get the job done faster, use less resources, with less effort on the part of the user then they should definitely not let go.

In the case of MODX the software is free, so in one sense it does not matter which version someone uses but presumably MODX will earn money providing services to users, or by connecting end users to service providers (users of a different flavor), or from contributions from satisfied users (of whatever flavor). How this interplays with versions of the software is crucial both to the success of MODX and to us the users of the software so generously developed and maintained by MODX.

Common …just look at the loading times of any big sites which people use nowadays…We live in times where in most big cities you get a 20-50mb/s connection (at least in Europe). Yes I’ve started making sites which had to run on a 56kb modem but since then internet and it’s speed evolved quite a lot. It’s really hard to get a connection under 2mbs which really suffice to view any heavier sites.
And no I can’t agree. Revolution is meant to be the next step. As far as I know it’s a flag product for modx so how you can compere a version which had last release two years ago to a version which is constantly evolving…this is an exact example of IE6 and later. In your logic doing sites in tables should be better…we all know it and it’s compatible with every browser so why not? There’s a reason why things evolve. Two years in modern times is huge gap and I seriously hope that the whole revo project was started with a certain concept behind.
I am sorry but I really can’t understand why there’s a need to support a product which two years ago was replaced with a “better” version.

Unfortunately things often don't move form bulky to svelte.
But they could - a rewrite of the revo manager anyone?

Who says they can't? If people hate Revo's manager, clone the whole thing on Git and fix it.

I think we agree - I thought I was saying they could - just that it often goes the other way.
However in my opinion the answer would not be to clone it but to start over - a pretty major undertaking.

Also for the folks that know and love evo reworking evo is way easier than learning revo AND reworking it.

I do realize that on the forums there are people who ask and answer questions about both evo and revo, just as there folks who know one or the other. The point I was trying to make was that there is an inherent split. If a 'united front' or community is desired we/someone has to decide what that means and make it happen.

Given that there are folks that 'love' evo I don't think the answer is to tell them it is going away, or even that is only going to have security patches unless the desired result is to have them go away (and presumably fork evo)

Is this not how forked projects usually come about - some dedicated users/developers, development languishes, or goes in a different direction than the aforementioned users wish for, project forks. It does not need to happen but certainly inevitable in some cases (especially with hindsight) I don't think it is has to happen here - it will be interesting to see how things unfold.

Quote from: blackflow at Apr 06, 2012, 02:05 PM

Maybe my opinion doesn’t hold much value since I never used evo but still…

Well, many of us tried both so we understand the difference.

Quote from: blackflow at Apr 06, 2012, 02:05 PM

As for the whole evo concept I think it’s similar with windows xp or maybe a better example IE.

After Windows XP there was actually Windows Vista that was a total flop, so new isn't always synonym of "better". I am not confronting Revolution with Vista, I am just making a consideration about your arguments.

Quote from: blackflow at Apr 06, 2012, 02:05 PM

Maybe my opinion doesn’t hold much value since I never used evo but still…
...
Revo is going to be 2 in July, and isn’t a good time to let go?

@blackflow

You are right, your opinion doesnt hold much value.

Once you have used Evo as much as most of the long term Evo users, then you can possibly come back and argue a point.

Till then I would leave such comments.

There's an old saying that most know "If it aint broke, dont fix it"

Evo is still used by tons of people and is still being downloaded on a regular basis - meaning, its a product that still has a future.

in most big cities you get a 20-50mb/s connection (at least in Europe)

discussions of giant sites, fast connections and the like are probably more suited to different discussion

Revolution is meant to be the next step. As far as I know it’s a flag product for modx so how you can compere a version which had last release two years ago to a version which is constantly evolving

May be the next step, but it might not be the right step for everyone.
I can compare evo to revo because I can make a modern site with either totally indistinguishable by the person viewing the site in a browser. We are talking tools - simpler is better if it does the job.

In your logic doing sites in tables should be better…we all know it and it’s compatible with every browser so why not?

In fact tables do not always display the same in all browsers.
I haven't created a table based site since the last century when I became frustrated with fixing a layout created by Dreamweaver, discovered BBEdit, and tossed Dreamweaver in the virtual trash can. Most of us don't create table based sites for very good reasons - but I'm letting myself digress off the point.

There’s a reason why things evolve. Two years in modern times is huge gap

Evolution is not a linear continuously improving path, sometimes the evolved thing is less suitable for its niche than its predecessor in which case it usually dies or is killed. Or, on a more positive note, they might both live on in their own niches.
You seem to like MS examples - consider XP and Vista, many Companies IT dept never went to Vista because for them XP was better, so MS had to support it - because their users did not want to change. MS had to create W7 to get many to update

I don't wish to imply revo/evo is as bad as XP/Vista but just because something is newer and has more features does not make it better for everyone (especially true for 'tools') - even in crazy world that is computers and the internet

I am sorry but I really can’t understand why there’s a need to support a product which two years ago was replaced with a “better” version.

I'm not sure anyone is asking the core developers to support a product (beyond security issues - which need to be done especially since there is not an easy way to migrate a site from the old to the new modx) that was 'replaced two years ago'. They are developing it themselves, how this happens and how it is incorporated into the community is what is in question.
I see you do have "better" in quotes - I will assume that is an acknowledgement that not everyone would agree that the new version is better, revo does some thing evo could not do but it is not as good at some things - if you don't need the new things, and value the better things

[ed. note: whistlemaker last edited this post 14 years, 5 months ago.]