Can one MODX rule them all?

Quote from: blankcheck at Apr 12, 2012, 01:22 PM

I am mostly in similar situation as rossco, as, I guess, many are.

+1

I committed myself to using Revolution and put some work into learning how it works. It's not scary any more and I now have the tools to tackle nearly any project. I've also had no issues with speed - in fact the ExtJS manager allows me to work faster. I'd be very disappointed to see it de-tuned in any way just because some find it too complex.

Sounds like it would be worth putting some effort back into Evo as a 'Lite' alternative, although I wouldn't want those dev resources taken off Revo...

The great thing about Revo when compared to Evo is it's extensibility. And like others, we divide tasks between designers and programmers and some in between.

It is definitely a work in progress and the ACLs are such that we basically have to make custom interface elements for clients to create particular types of users (the scenario being that a company has a profile page and the user attached to that company can edit that page but other members cannot and the general public can view the page) because there are so many steps in the process such as:

1) create a resource group named after the member: i.e. 'Members-acme'

2) create a user group named after the member: i.e. 'Members-acme'

3) create a user named after the member: i.e. 'acme'.

3a) Place this user in the 'Members-acme' user group.

4) create the resource for the profile page under member-profiles (i.e. acme).

4a) Put this resource in the 'Members-acme' resource group

5) edit the 'anonymous' user group.

5a) Under "Resource Group Access", add a new resource group:
context: "the correct context"
resource group: "Members-acme"
minimum role: "Member-9999"
access policy: "Load, List and View"

6) edit the 'Members-acme' user group.

6a) Under "Context Access", add a new context:
context: "the correct context"
minimum role: "Member-9999"
access policy: "Administrator"

6b) Under "Resource Group Access", add a new resource group:
context: "the correct context"
resource group: "Member Pages"
minimum role: "Member-9999"
access policy: "Load, List and View"

6c) Under "Resource Group Access", add a new resource group:
context: "the correct context"
resource group: "Members-acme"
minimum role: "Member-9999"
access policy: "Object"

Flush all sessions to make this active.

Clients don't want to do all that for such a task so we have to program a module to do it all for them. Permissions are powerful and complex which is both great and in some cases, not so great. If there is one group of protected pages it's rather easy for an end user/client to add pages to that group and have them locked down. The moment you step out of that, it's not the case. If you have any project that involves anything more than a single protected user/resource group you have to think it through very carefully (which is fine) and the price for doing the production will, of course, increase.

We love Forms Customization but the interface is rather tedious, unless we're missing something. Sometimes a few templates have the same sets of rules, but you cannot create a set of rules and apply them to multiple templates. That would be great but it's a minor issue. The current method just consumes more time.

All that said the foundation is superb and it allows a great deal of flexibility. That is the chief reason to use it over any other current CMF. Most in this thread who have "complaints" about complexity are not doing so because they can't handle it, but are doing so to improve the product and cut down on production time.

In addition, the addons for Revo are, with few exceptions, spectacular, with some core addons we use in every project:

getResources and related Addons
- will look into Articles soon but it was in conflict with something else I can't quite recall
MIGX
Google Site Map
Login
FAQ Manager
Wayfinder
Batcher
Codemirror
Formit and related Addons
If (because sometimes it works when Output Filters don't"
Personalise
phpthumbof
QuickCrumbs
Simple Search
TinyMCE

It's a superb application that most of us are very enthused about and we'd like to see it continue to gain momentum.

Quote from: rossco at Apr 12, 2012, 07:18 AM

...
Stick to what you do, if you're a designer then design and let the developer do what they do best. Designers trying to develop is what is keeping MODX back.
...
If you don't know how to develop, don't attempt it or go and use Wordpress which is more suited to people that don't want to learn.

Why should I bother a back-end developer when it comes to templating and installing MODx ?

I know designers who are excellent developers and vice versa.

Simply saying that Revo is possibly being kept back because of designers / end-users isn't appropriate in my opinion

If MODx was to be built solely for developers it wouldnt get anywhere quick and it probably wouldn't make financial sense, the masses make the music.

Why should I bother a back-end developer when it comes to templating and installing MODx ?

You most definitely don't need a back-end developer for that. I think Rossco was aiming at heavily customizing the back-end interface, which simply will need more PHP/ExtJS skills than the average designer possesses. The other way around, interfaces designers will build are usually much better than what the average developer would come up with. Let's work together and be super awesome.

Thanks again for all your feedback over the last week or so. You've helped clarify and confirm some things—and definitely come up with some great suggestions over all. Jason, Shaun and Dustin will be in town in a couple of weeks, so the timing for this all couldn't be better. We'll discuss specifics of how we can move forward between now and then, and afterward we'll be able to share a roadmap and timeline so you can know what to expect going forward.

I'm a little late to this thread but I'd still like to add my thoughts. I'll try and keep it brief and refrain from repeating what's already been said. I'm sort of glad this thread exists as it confirms what I've been feeling about Revo for quite some time. It's also great to see the MODX team are open to the community and their users.

I'm a freelance website designer/builder, I'd place myself fairly firmly in the middle of design/frontend coder and PHP/database dev. Before the many CMS came along I rolled my own, life was simple (well sort of, in a rose tinted way) I tried out the usual suspects before settling on MODX. I was attracted by the lightweight, speed, small footprint and freedom. I built a few sites using Evo and when Revo was released I jumped straight in after a brief evaluation period. I wasn't unhappy with Evo but saw Revo as the future and the logical progression. I was confident with the team and MODX looked like it was here to stay with active development so I pretty much committed to it.

So I've been almost exclusively developing with Revo, I even moved a few of my Evo sites over to Revo. Over the last year or so Revo has slowly been sapping my enjoyment of developing websites for all the reasons mentioned in this thread, speed, ACLs etc. Without any more nut cracking metaphors this concern has increasingly been at the back of my mind. A switch back to Evo never occured to me and I was quite surprised to see the strong support for Evo in the "back to life" thread. It's so long since I used Evo, but still, switching back doesn't feel right to me.

I would really like to see Revo improved, bit of a diet, speed improvements, less esoteric features (ALCs) I want to be working with something snappy and responsive. If a requirement of Revo is to run on dedicated hosting enviroment then that's fine but it's probably not the solution for me. This is one of the reason I don't use Magento, however it remains the right solution for many, just not for me. As an aside, I currently run my Revo sites on good quality shared hosting with reasonable success.

The Evo/Revo split is a concern, I'd personally like to see a single MODX developed based on Revo with all the benefits of Evo. Not killing off Evo but making Revo a viable move for Evo users. I don't know if this is possible, I hope so. I think two versions could work, I'd see Revo as moving towards MODX "enterprise edition" (using that term loosely) and a MODX "standard edition" whether that be based on Evo or Revo (I'd be using the standard edition). The danger I see is Evo breaking away from MODX and Revo moving in the opposite direction, getting chunkier and more powerful. I wouldn't know which way to go and as I result I'd probably go somewhere else entirely.

Hopefully you can work together, the statements from the core team tell me that the direction of Revo is still driven by the original values that MODX set out with. This post pretty much sums up how I feel about it https://forums.modx.com/thread/74766/bringing-evo-back-to-life-again?page=20#dis-post-418944

For now, I'm hanging in with Revo, I've invested a lot of time in it. In honesty I have been looking around at alternatives but all face similar challenges. Part of me feels like getting back to the "simplicity" of coding and rolling my own but the practical issues for one guy are obvious.

Good luck all, your work on Evo and Revo is amazing and very much appreciated.
I look forward to seeing the roadmap and timeline.

tl:dr