"Time is not on our side"

[MOD NOTE: Thread split from [snippet] Popular Pages as it has no direct relevance to the snippet

Quote from: rthrash at Jul 20, 2006, 04:47 PM

What happens if the built in stats changes (hint)?

I’m not sure what you mean with the "built in stats" Ryan.
But if the inner workings are changed, most of the "outer workings" will get worthless.
For me that’s just one more hint to hurry up the next release (0.95 or tattoo). There are more and more solutions around which behave like work-arounds, since the current version does not supply means to do it otherwise.
I guess it’s time to deliver the long (since march) promised update. Time, in this case, is NOT "on our side" but against us.

ppaul,

Time may be against us, but so is work that keeps us able to contribute to this project. This is 100% donation work from us and those types of comments honestly just rub me the wrong way.

Apologize! This was not meant to be a critizism!
On the other hand: It’s not only the founders, it’s the whole community - which creates not the existence, but the vitality of MODx - who works even without any donation other than the pure existence of MODx.
In my personal case: I’ve spent "1 days, 13 hours and 41 minutes at MODx forums". Multiply this by 20 and you have a good estimate of the time I invested in MODx so far. Without havin’ made one single buck out of it. Just for the hope of creating and/or fostering a solution that will be open, friendly, powerful and a benefit for all of us.
And it would be very natural if you’d say: "it is at it is, maybe we’ll find the time and the opportunities to release a better version". But that’s actually not what you were telling us. Since March.

ppaul, your logic is that it is better to have the MODx version with newer inner workings available ASAP so that outer workings do not have a short shelf-life.

But this is bad logic :

1) If there was a release every month with some little thing changed, then add-ons would potentially "break" more often.
2) If there’s some huge demand for fancy features ASAP, then surely there’s great worth in there being add-ons now that let you add a feature to a website today.
3) If you want to know that there’s a risk of things changing soon, then surely "promises" of new releases helps you in your judgement?

And in any event, the majority of MODx changes are add-ons for MODx anyway. For example, not everyone uses the default MODX 0.9.2.1 stats.

See, I already pointed out in this thread that it was probably unwise to expend a large amount of time on this, as there are plans to change the statistics code used by MODx. Particularly, that it is unwise to add features unless you have a need for them now.

In any event, the knowledge gained from this little exercise of cleaning up a snippet so it can be used by most current MODx users has worth in addition to the actual finished code.

I was really happy with this thread and you’ve gone and ruined the whole vibe with your "ooo hurry up and give me free software that’s all shiny and better ’cos you _promised_". So much so that I’m actually modding this out into a new thread momentarily. How the heck is time against us? How is that relevant to this snippet at all?

I’ve spent "1 days, 13 hours and 41 minutes at MODx forums". Multiply this by 20 and you have a good estimate of the time I invested in MODx so far.

Extrapolate that to my 30+ days... I’ve put full time into this project since its inception. I’ve funded all costs out of pocket. Any project I can get that can go towards making MODx better, I take it. If a project doesn’t fit MODx, I turn it down. Your blind and naive speculation about what is going on, and the future of the project come across as arrogant and demanding.

The next release will be our 10th since Nov 2004. I hardly think we’re delivering things slowly.

Quote from: PaulGregory at Jul 20, 2006, 06:33 PM

I was really happy with this thread and you’ve gone and ruined the whole vibe with your "ooo hurry up and give me free software that’s all shiny and better ’cos you _promised_". So much so that I’m actually modding this out into a new thread momentarily. How the heck is time against us? How is that relevant to this snippet at all?

Forgive me that I ruined the vibes! That was not my intention at all! My only concern is that MODx will be a successfull, amazing CMS/framework like no one has ever seen before. And in respect to this goal the issue should be: How confident can a new user be that he has taken the right choice when he first encounters MODx?
This is a matter of reliability, I think. And reliability is a matter of keeping promises, not of making them. I will never ever come back to this argument again, I swear! But not because I think I’m wrong, but because I know now, that it might disencourage or intimidate the dev-team and its efforts. That’s just the opposite of what I intend. I do not say "hurry up", I simply say: do what you’ve announced or do not announce at all. Otherwise all efforts may be in vain, since nobody will rely on what you’re sayin’. And, obviously: Your efforts are far bigger then mine.
I’ll shut up now.
I’m very sorry for this incident and can only hope you will accept that I caused it only for the sake of the future of MODx, not to spoil or to question it.

I am just leaving for one-week holidays, so I probably won’t follow up on what I’ll be saying here, but I do think the root of this "mishap" (so to speak) is precisely based :

1) On MODx’s release cycle : the dev team has a pace/release cycle that I have NEVER seen in any opensource projects (and I have belonged to a few communities, vital ones at that if you take Textpattern’s).

2) On the cutting-edge ideas which MODx is built upon : I really DO think MODx is groundbreaking in many ways, and it will be even more so in the future. That’s why lots of MODx users get enthusiastic when they discover MODx, and even more so when they dig into its full power. Then, at some point they encounter limitations and they just know those will be overcome by the team (more often than not, because the team answers pretty fast and communicates a lot about the future).

This undoubtedly leads to high expectations.
May I say, in some rare cases, unreasonnable expectations

Sometimes a given timeframe is set and has to be changed because the team has to adapt and take the best course of action : in this case, delaying a release. I think we can trust Ryan, Jason and Raymond to decide whatever is best for the project : they’ve showed time and again their dedication, talent and wits. You’ll have to trust that in this case, things are well thought out and you’ll probably be sorry having spoken too quickly when you do in fact see what’s in the release. Even better, you have to support them : that means contributing, which you’ve done, but donations sure could help too as Ryan puts it "Time may be against us, but so is work that keeps us able to contribute to this project." At some point you have to pay the bills, make a living. Let’s remember that MODx is a great gift to us developpers or webdesigners, a gift we have to be grateful for and to take care of

but donations sure could help too

I would like to donate, but I do not have a PayPal account, nor do I wish to create one.
If you could enable us to use our credit-cards, more donations will be made.
(That’s for sure, since at least I will donate )

LOL... fair enough ppaul. I’m working with Susan on ShopX and real payment gateways, so in due course you’ll have a route to do so. Be careful what you ask for!

ppaul,

Also on a related note, please check out the now-public SVN trunk to get an idea of what’s coming. And FYI, we did make a release in the interim, it was just not labeled 0.9.5 (0.9.2.x) and it did contain some very appreciable upgrades to 0.9.1. With that said, the things being put in place for 0.9.5 are a big step forward as well.

If I could work full time on MODx without clients getting in the way, it’d be a boatload of fun. But by the same token, MODx would be no where close to where it is today without client work that funded some very cool code that is in the current trunk or that is coming there soon.

If you’re in to tracking real trends of web traffic, I hardly think we’re in dangerof failing or falling behind. If only you knew about some of the articles and opportunities that are on the table, and some of the other "marketing-esqe" activities that will be revealed in due course... We’re so far ahead of where our most optimistic hopes would have put us today compared to other solutions out there.

There are CLEARLY things that need to be fixed in the code, but until someone wins the Lotto and makes it so we can hire several people full time to start the MODx foundation, you’ll just have to exercise patience, and show us a bit of trust. Thinks we planned in early 2005 are now surfacing in the code. And what’s about to be there, well...