evolution? revolution? ho-hum .... really? ... think not though ...

Now, that I got you boys and gals attention.

1.) Can somebody please tell me why ModX (beyond coding skill) is any better than some of the other systems out there?

2.) What are we doing that should bring us more attention? (or not doing?)

3.) lolo, Ajax ... yeah, so --- what?

Come on, beyond the latest admin design ... there’s gotta be more ...

Let’s start pushing the apple envelope!!




I might be coming across as a few explictivie names at the moment, but I’e got an idea forming that might be .... evolutionary and revolutionary.

edit the small pringt was too small to see

Having a late night Sake Carsten?

Quote from: Carsten at Dec 08, 2008, 10:27 AM

1.) Can somebody please tell me why ModX (beyond coding skill) is any better than some of the other systems out there?
Come on, beyond the latest admin design ... there’s gotta be more ...

To me, it’s simply the potential that the framework holds for developers. It’s been great through the 0.9.x versions, but the conceptual underpinnings outlined here http://modxcms.com/transforming-modx-oo-mvc-orm.html
which have (remarkably) become reality - for me, that’s the real story here.

modx itself, out of the box, is and will continue to be a great, flexible cmf for developers and savvy designers/agencies. But it’s more than that. Great things will be built in modx, and I’m not just talking about websites. Web applications, vertical-specific CMSes, all kinds of stuff. IMO that’s the "more" that you’re asking for.

What’s an apple envelope?

lolo, not a late night sake, but rather....

I’m trying to rouse some hairs and get some attention here to get some ideas out in the open that will make modx "defiantely" different, "crazily" different. Something that other apps aren’t already doing.

I’m not knocking the code or what has been going on but rather, the concept that the "apple" (as in Steve Jobs) envelope would be pushing for. But, yes, in a way to be honest, I guess I am knocking what has been going on. Not in a bad way though, more of a "devil’s advocate" way.

I see modx as a designer’s app.
But yet, it’s not visual friendly.

Most designers are visually based. But almost every single app I have seen on the net as being programmer based.

Type this and type that. << which is why modx is like many other products.
What is visual in the word or action of typing?


@netprohet

I really do agree with you!
PS, I like the Japanese "logo" -- actually, it’s more of an old traditional logo that a merchant would use

I am not sure I make sense of your posts here too, but sure we love to be pushed out of our comfort zone and if there is one thing which really sets up apart aside from the incredible versatility and flexiblity of modx is the community. Really, that’s a key asset way too often underated !

This being said, we have an idea about what we should do to better ourselves :

• better repository (it’s currently way too hard to find what you need)
• new modxcms.com
• refreshed/new UI for the manager (lots of efforts about that under way - kudos Mark and Shaun and all who contributed)
• more comprehensive / better documentation (there is a lot going on in that department for revolution)
• set up better incentives for users to test revolution and coders to jump in, convert their addons, contribute code

New logo was a first step (I for one love it), and most of those items above are in the works, but we’re open to ideas as always

Quote from: Carsten at Dec 09, 2008, 04:02 AM

lolo, not a late night sake, but rather....

I’m trying to rouse some hairs and get some attention here to get some ideas out in the open that will make modx "defiantely" different, "crazily" different. Something that other apps aren’t already doing.

I see modx as a designer’s app.
But yet, it’s not visual friendly.

Most designers are visually based. But almost every single app I have seen on the net as being programmer based.

Type this and type that. << which is why modx is like many other products.
What is visual in the word or action of typing?

Your point ties into an ongoing discussion about snippet properties (http://modxcms.com/forums/index.php/topic,31021.msg188015.html#msg188015).

The discussion centers around letting users set the arguments to a snippet in a GUI grid rather than typing in all the parameters in the snippet call (as a programmer would).

The grid exists in Revolution and works really well, but at present the user’s settings will be overwritten when the snippet is updated. Please feel free to join the discussion (in that thread) about the future of this feature, which I think *would* set MODx apart from the other products you refer to and push some kind of envelope (though maybe not an Apple one).

Hey, I think BobRay is tuned into what I’m trying to say/get at.

That is a good idea!

However, I’m thinking of something different.

Programmers think in code and work with their keyboards.

Why do programmers force users into their way of interacting with an app?
This is not the way users think, nor wish to think.

The general populace’s memory and way of thinking can be broken down into:
55% visual
30% auditory
15% kinesthetic (feeling/touch)

For your senses:
70%+ eyes
(lolo, I forgot the numbers for the rest).

Anyway, when you think about it, photoshop has maintained market share even though gimp is free.
The interface is a major part of this.

So, coming back to modx.
Designers are more than likely of the visual sort.
Users interact with the net visually. Think of how the net boomed after mosaic and other text based browsers became old fashioned.

Programmers are kinesthetic in a sense. They keep their hands moving with their brains.

What about the designers who have to dig into the manager area ... they are forced into typing a lot of information rather than being able to interact with it in a visual term. (yes, I know content needs to be typed).

Before I drag on too much ... toliets use shapes! Imagine having to deal with only written words.

Carsten,

Thanks for starting this thread. I’ve actually been thinking about this very topic.

In marketing a product or service it is sometimes good to do as the other guys do but make improvements and sometimes it is better to make something so daringly different that people’s perception of the market is changed.

The CMS field is a lot about improvements and enhancments; the cycle of better mousetrap building. Going big is risky as it means not improving but changing how people work, think and interact with the software.

One of the daringly different things MODx does it to enable designers and developers to work in the world they’re used to? PHP/MySQL folks get to use their real language with a rather compact api and not a 1000 functions or methods to wade through. Not weird markup, not proprietary addon syntax. No template language to learn (although you can use Smarty with Revolution if you want). Its XHTML/CSS+JS libraries if you want.

I agree though that we need to push the envelope a little, I think however there is room to better express our USP (unique selling proposition).

Sure making exciting apps is a great idea and I am sure that to some people MODx is exciting but personally I like it because it is NOT an incredible challenge at every turn. I like it because it is a little boring to work with. It is easy. The exciting part is in me being able to more rapidly complete projects with software that won’t impede my creativity. We may not market some of the benefits of boring but they can be a tremendous asset to any application. When apps are easy, they become transparent and the workflow becomes routine (not tedious).

It’s funny that at least once a week I see someone complaining about our weak documentation (and yes it needs some housecleaning and updating) but I’ve remarked on the fact that unlike some challenging apps like Joomla or Drupal or even WordPress you don’t need a 600page plus book to build a website. That’s different!

I am sure as heck not a programmer and I wholly agree that more attention can be turned to the user experience to improve it. In addition the shift in the components in Revolution will make development and design even easier since you no longer need to have templates in the DB (although you can do this in 0.9.x with an include).

In the next months you will see some differences in our positioning and some serious challenges in the FOSS CMS/CMF field.

Please keep this thread going. More views welcome and I love to be proven wrong.

Cheers,

Jay

Hi Jay,

I do agree with you on your points.

I’m justing trying to think like our new logo. A box that is still a box but open to a new way of doing things. (I am in no way complaining about the back end, what has been done or what is being done.) I’m just trying to challenge the community to come up with ways to make things easier. Trying to come up with ways to make the "work flow" a little less tedious and a more in tuned with the way people react with their world.

There have been advances in the world of cognitive psychology in the last 30 years. Take a look at what NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) is doing. There is a lot of things that we take from other fields to apply to software.

Anybody ever wonder why menus are not located on the right side of the screen?
Why menus on the left tend to be more intuitive versus being top located.

Things like this come naturally but in reality there is actual data to as why this occurs.

Apple took risks with making things easier and more intuitive, thus to the Apple envelope (the idea of breaking boudaries).

There is so much talent here in the community. The stuff I’ve seen in the past few years really amazes me. The main core of the software amazes me and once it has been brought to the attention of people they normally actually check out what is going on.

I just want to tap into this great resource that is at our disposal.

:D

Use modx, it is boring so you don’t have to be

Anyway, kidding aside, I think that Revo will be proving the structure for greater flexibility of the manager interface. This can open the gates for more visually enticing stuff like drag and drop, live editing, and other cool stuff. It is my opinion that the manager is in a great direction and as Revo user base grows that some very cool interface add-ons will be made available.

Where I think things are getting a bit behind the times is regarding the snippets, in particular the user input snippets. This is 100% not a modx problem but a community one (therefore I share the blame). What I mean is for example there should be more ajax (yes a buzzword) to at least keep up with the stuff available in other platforms. This is by no means a criticism of any snippet developer, what has been done is fantastic and much more than i have contributed. One example is the clunky pop-up windows for QuickEdit, other cms are using modal or even edit-in-place technologies. (Will there be a QuickEdit for Revo?)

For an "ajax cms" the only real ajax add-ons are AjaxSearch and to some degree MaxiGallery (I am referring to front end add-ons, there are several back-end add-ons that are ajax rich). I hesitate to make suggestions since I don’t have the ability to do better myself (who am I to criticize), but in order to make it main stream the add-ons need to be as strong as the application itself.  I feel that modx is in an exiting but strange point in time. With Revo on the horizon, new site within reach, and a general anticipation of a new direction in the air, I feel that there is a bit of "should I put effort into developing an add-on for Evo or wait and do it for Revo" going on (at least I have considered this myself and have had clients take this into consideration as well).  How to instigate an overhaul of a few key existing snippets for Evo to bring them up to date with current trends. Do the snippets need to be for one or the other, can’t they be developed for both versions?

Edit: I also think that a sort of "dashboard" is missing in the manager (both versions). It may be interesting to have a ’plug-in’ method to add custom panels to a dashboard so that blog users could have a recent comments panel in the dashboard and commerce users could include an inventory panel or and so on. This would really go one step beyond custom themes as well as bring a relationship between modules (or whatever they are called in Revo) and the opening ’dashboard’ page. One thing I think the managers suffer from is click fever where everything requires a few clicks. With a smart dashboard and custom panels there could be many shortcuts for common tasks specific to each user type and not be dependent on custom themes, simply plug-n-play.