I am a bit angry at Apple for once, yeah it's the iPhone I am talking about !

Nothing new under the sun, you guys in the US and UK already enjoy the operator locked iPhone but as it enters the french market (yesterday) I am pretty pissed off at Apple for locking the iPhone.

Yeah well I know some of you are against the whole iPhone histeria and don’t want one, period. Maybe you think the Nokia N95 cuts it but I don’t !
OS X on a Phone, that’s just something you can’t resist !

I also know there are some ways to unlock the iPhone (though firmware upgrades compromise those, it would seem), but I am hesitant about it...

Why oh why did Apple play the mobile operator’s ugly game of setting traps... I really wonder !
I hope this changes in the future...

If the OSX vs Windows ads have taught me anything...

It’s that Apple is so full of themselves that they think they could get away with saying/doing whatever they want, because they’ll always have that core group of Mac fanatics that will buy into whatever new product they come out with / the newest minor release of a product that costs the same amount.

Slightly off-topic, but it’s that mentality that’s kept me from getting a Mac (even though I could boot WinXP in it, now). Plus how you have to get a new system every time a new minor release comes out (10.x, as an example), since IIRC, it’s hard to switch out stuff from the system with newer stuff.

Quote from: Soshite at Nov 30, 2007, 07:19 PM

If the OSX vs Windows ads have taught me anything...

It’s that Apple is so full of themselves that they think they could get away with saying/doing whatever they want, because they’ll always have that core group of Mac fanatics that will buy into whatever new product they come out with / the newest minor release of a product that costs the same amount.

uhhh.... ok?
Perhaps the fact that they produce some of the most sought after, intuitive, must-have consumer electronics in the history of consumer electronics and that, regardless of their current (very comfortable) financial situation, they do not have the resources to set up a cellular infrastructure. They had to find a carrier. Each of the 3 carriers Apple considered demanded exclusivity (the deal was exclusive rights to provide iPhone service or no deal at all). At the time, the ATT offer provided for the most freedom for the iPhone customer base.

Soshite, your post is angry, misinformed, and insulting to those of us who choose Mac products for the freedom the provide us in letting us work the way we want to work.

Quote from: Soshite at Nov 30, 2007, 07:19 PM

Slightly off-topic, but it’s that mentality that’s kept me from getting a Mac (even though I could boot WinXP in it, now). Plus how you have to get a new system every time a new minor release comes out (10.x, as an example), since IIRC, it’s hard to switch out stuff from the system with newer stuff.

Typical of the type of banter orally defecated from those with little or no Mac OS X experience. I have a 400MHz G3 iMac circa 1999 or 2000 that has gone from OS 9.1 to 10.2 to 10.3 to 10.4 and now 10.5 (although with only 768Mb of RAM it struggles with 10.5).

Hard to switch out stuff in the system?
I have to wonder, honestly, how many computer parts do you (or even more so an average PC user) "switch out"?
I went upgrade my windows PC just over a year ago. I wanted a faster graphics card. I put in a PCIe nVidia card in, but it was worse, so I dropped a couple hundred on a new (at the time P4 processor), but the system bus wasn’t fast enough to byte swap enough data between the FSB and the south bridge, so my $199 GFX card, $250 processor, $200 in PC3200 RAM, $169 PATA Seagate 160 GB hard drive means I spent nearly $820 to "upgrade" a PC that was not even measurably faster after. I could have nearly had a new iMac for that cost.

The intelligent pc user understands that RAM, Hard Drive, and (possibly) optical drive are about the limits of what should be upgraded on a computer. Going for more than that and it will be more affordable and reliable to get a new PC.

I have G4 PowerBook that I upgraded the hard drive from the 60Gb that it came with to a 160Gb seagate, Maxed out the RAM, and I even replaced the super drive with a Pioneer slim DVD-/+ RW DL drive. Total cost... $350. Trying to upgrade anything else on my powerbook would have been nearly impossible, but, I would have spent more money than I could justify when I could nearly purchase a new MacBook Pro.

The moral of the story is that the misnomer that Apples are not "upgradable" is BS. I am not going to tell you that you should "get a Mac", because that is not the right answer for everyone. You need to use the tools that help you get your work done as efficiently as possible. Most people that get the opportunity to spend some time on a Mac cringe when they have to go back to anything else. So don’t get a Mac Soshite, but don’t pretend you know WTF you are talking about when it comes to Macs either.

-sD-
Dr. Scotty Delicious, DFPA.

Not that I want to take on SD’s justified rant but I have been a user of both Macs and PCs for nearly 27 years and though I spend most of my time using PCs I appreciate the design elegance of Apple. I have currently two PCs and a Macbook and each I use for different purposes. Primarily my wife uses the Macbook as she likes some of the software not availble to PC (she was a lifelong PC user until the Macbook came out). The fact that a consumer product was designed from head to toe makes the user experience an intuitive delight vs the "Wild West" PC configurations. People want technology that works not necessarily technology that needs help to work. Apple gets that limiting features is a feature. Defining the experience makes an experience a pleasure. "This is what I can do. How can I be creative with it?" vs. "I can do anything. I’ll take a week to figure out where to start."

The iPhone is not available in Canada (small market and incompatible network [at this time]) but I am sure that there will be lots of people who want it. I would assume that it will work as well as my two iPods and Mac book and the countless numbers of Macs I have used from the Macintosh to the Apple IIe to the 900 series to the G3s and G4s and finally the MacBook in my office today and the iMac next year.

Make peace all. Computers are our friends and our money train.

All the best,

Jay

Oh, Oh! Clash of religions in progress.

I just came very close to getting an iMac and Vista is making me wish I had. If there was a MacBook with a 20" screen like the one on my HP HDX, I’d probably own one. I’m sure it will exist in the near future (there are already rumors).

I’ve been on PCs since I moved away from my Apple II, but I absolutely love the Mac vs PC ads, especially since getting Vista.

I do wish that people on both sides could be a little less angry and defensive. Vista is clearly an attempt to emulate Apple’s operating system and, IMHO, Apple’s use of Intel chips and ability to install Windows is just the reverse.

I have to agree with DavidM that the iPhone user interface is nothing short of spectacular and it’s frustrating that it isn’t a more open architecture.

Bob

iPhones will be out of style before I can get one here in Brazil. We host the worlds most expensive iPods here so I am sure that cost will be more of an issue over carrier service when it does make it.

I love my Macs. Although my main computer today is a MacBook, I still often use an old second generation G4 (also 400mhz) that, although is getting a bit slow, has no problem updating system software and runs like a charm (using it this very moment), I mean this thing is close to 10 years old and runs Adobe CS2 no problem (as long as you don’t open to many of the apps at the same time).

My family used to be divided, half of us used the Mac (way back since the Apple IIe and Mac+ which had no hard drive, Photoshop 2 ran on a floppy!) and the other half were PC users. I bought my dad an iMack one year and he never looked back, but my brother was the total anti-mac (probably as a rebellion against me). Then he went to work for a photo production company and everyone in the industry used a Mac and his boss set him up with one for work. It was funny, at first he would say ’it’s good for some things but the PC is still better’, then after a few weeks ’hey this is not bad but I would not buy one’, then after a few months ’I don’t even remember why I ever like the PC’. It was too funny to watch this unwilling transformation, for me it was poetic justice.

Anyway, the bottom line is everyone rolls their own according to their own preferences. But the Macs are the best in my opinion

I did have an iMac G3 go up in flames once, it is the only time a mac has failed but it was a major catastrophe. I still have it in my office (it took some time before the smoke smell went away). The funny thing is that what burned was the insulation on the wiring to the monitor and while it was burning it never stopped working until I yanked the plug. I am sure that if I were to isolate the wiring it would still work, but those iMacs were such a hassle to open and work with that I did not bother (and the high voltage monitors scare me).

Looking back at that first bit --- probably wasn’t needed (although I have seen that mentality occur for some other items they’ve sold).

And Scotty, I was meaning that I don’t like their model where they release a new minor version of their OS ever year or so (it’s varied sometimes in the past, but I’m just using a broad generalization here), and sometimes, those new versions require either switching out for new components or buying a newer model of said computer. I wasn’t meaning it happens every time, but it has happened before. Of course, this depends on if said user looks to find a computer that would be easy to upgrade along that path (same as with a Windows PC).

Although my annoyance towards Apple is in how those minor version upgrades are done. I’d rather have a OS that has major updates than one that will have a new #.x version updates for X amount of money. Maybe it’s just me, but I see it as having to pay for a SP(x) upgrade --- although it is key to note that OSX upgrades include new/upgraded features. But it’s still using the same base code for each release --- just newer/upgraded software/programs for the new build.

And how was I insulting you guys who bought one? In that first part, I was talking about the hard-hard-core fanatics that go apeshit every time Apple releases new information (basically, the Mac version of the Nintendo fanatics ). Of course some people use it for their own reasons, and aren’t fanatics. That’s why I didn’t group said people into that.

And for a better example of how Apple was full of themselves in one situation, let’s take the iPhone price drop. They screw over the early adopters, and give them 100 bucks in free music to download from iTunes, when the thing cost 200 more than before the drop. Plus how Apple’s electronics have the initial version released, then a better version with expanded features comes in six months. It’s not like a gaming system upgrade, where you know it’s coming, but it doesn’t happen for a good couple months, and the newer version only has upgraded hard drive space or better battery life/etc.

To sum it up, I dislike their mentality for how they run the upgrading scheme for their products (plus those damned Mac>Windows ads I see all the time). In retrospect, I probably should have put this post before my initial one. I guess that’s what I get for getting into this kind of topic with less than five hours of sleep after a hard day of work.

Quote from: Soshite at Dec 01, 2007, 08:10 AM

Looking back at that first bit --- probably wasn’t needed (although I have seen that mentality occur for some other items they’ve sold).

Yeah, my comment was a bit harsh as well. Sorry.

Quote from: Soshite at Dec 01, 2007, 08:10 AM

And Scotty, I was meaning that I don’t like their model where they release a new minor version of their OS ever year or so (it’s varied sometimes in the past, but I’m just using a broad generalization here), and sometimes, those new versions require either switching out for new components or buying a newer model of said computer[...]

Not true though. The latest version of the OS has a minimum requirement of Mac computer with an Intel, PowerPC G5, or PowerPC G4 (867MHz or faster) processor, 512MB of RAM, a DVD drive for installation, and 9GB of disk space, but as I said, I successfully installed it on even older hardware (a G3 iMac) by connecting it to an approved Mac by firewire in target disk mode. Even the approved hardware goes back to circa 2001. That is full hardware support for over 7 years!

Quote from: Soshite at Dec 01, 2007, 08:10 AM

Although my annoyance towards Apple is in how those minor version upgrades are done. I’d rather have a OS that has major updates than one that will have a new #.x version updates for X amount of money. Maybe it’s just me, but I see it as having to pay for a SP(x) upgrade --- although it is key to note that OSX upgrades include new/upgraded features. But it’s still using the same base code for each release --- just newer/upgraded software/programs for the new build.

Apples operating system is non-conventional. They are apparently smitten with "X" as a 10, and rather that release Panther, Jaguar, and Tiger as OS 11, OS 12, OS 13, and now Leopard as OS 14, they have chosen to release them with a "point release" naming convention. This does not follow the linux naming conventions that I think you are confusing them with. Moving from 10.3 to 10.4 is equivocal to upgrading from windows 98 to Windows XP. It is not simply a Linux-like point release, just that they REALLY seem to like the number 10. Every new release is a very new, but very backwards compatible version of the OS, not just a minor release that they charge $129 dollars for.

As far as having to pay for a SP(x) upgrade.... looking back at OS X 10.4 Tiger, Apple has released 11 service pack upgrades (10.4.1 - 10.4.11) which covers their OS, security updates, and service updates for ALL apple software. This is a free, very easy upgrade system through Apple Software Update. Oh, and "the same code base" you mentioned is the Mach kernel (a BSD Unix derivative known as "Darwin") which is about 0.002% of the OS package. I don’t think you understand exactly how much code and work went into 10.5. It is not just an upgraded version of 10.4 as you seem to think. This is more like if Microsoft had called their new OS "XP.2" instead of "Vista" (bad example because Vista sucks). The name is just a marketing engine that Apple has chosen. Anyone who as used a previous incarnation of Mac OS X and has upgraded to the next OS X can quickly tell you that the upgrade is nothing short of intuitive, impressive, and incredible.

Quote from: Soshite at Dec 01, 2007, 08:10 AM

And for a better example of how Apple was full of themselves in one situation, let’s take the iPhone price drop. They screw over the early adopters, and give them 100 bucks in free music to download from iTunes, when the thing cost 200 more than before the drop. Plus how Apple’s electronics have the initial version released, then a better version with expanded features comes in six months. It’s not like a gaming system upgrade, where you know it’s coming, but it doesn’t happen for a good couple months, and the newer version only has upgraded hard drive space or better battery life/etc.

I can safely assume that product R&D and marketing are not your strong suits.

Quote from: Soshite at Dec 01, 2007, 08:10 AM

To sum it up, I dislike their mentality for how they run the upgrading scheme for their products (plus those damned Mac>Windows ads I see all the time). In retrospect, I probably should have put this post before my initial one. I guess that’s what I get for getting into this kind of topic with less than five hours of sleep after a hard day of work.

Hopefully now you understand that the upgrading "scheme" is not a scheme at all, just a naming convention... very similar to the Linux kernel naming convention (using the point system), but not following the same guidelines. It is a marketing and name thing for Apple. They love the X. A point release from Apple is going to be a fully new OS, not a service pack with some upgraded software as you seem to think. And at $129 compared to $399 for Vista Ultimate it is a really good value too, considering all the programming hours, thought and innovation (just waiting for M$ to steal, LOL) that went into the last release.

No hard feelings Soshite
I just thought I could help by clearing up some common misconceptions on the Mac Vs. Windows war for those who don’t know much about the Mac.

-sD-
Dr. Scotty Delicious, DFPA.

My $100 iphone rebate went towards Leopard. Technology gets cheaper and the fact they gave back $100 was great.

Those Mac Windows ads and Apples arrogance seem to be working though. Apple’s marketshare is growing, and I don’t think it’s going to stop in the next couple of years. Their value in the stock market has surpassed IBM and Intel. I think only Google, Microsoft and perhaps one other tech company are above them. Apple focuses on the user experience and the average consumer, not catering to the demands of corporate IT department with Enterprises to support. That means people like me, who’ve not had any anti-virus software running in over 15 years now.

You can’t touch the experience with Leopard out of the box, even on my wife’s hand-me-down G4 powerbook. (Is there a 5-year-old laptop that Vista will run on?) The leap in overall experience (not to mention features and capabilities) from 10.4 to 10.5 is incredible. Mind you it took 2 years to get there. Does that sound like a minor update timeframe, despite the "minor" point release nomenclature? For that matter does MODx offer a more flexible solution than a lot out there despite it’s "immature" version naming scheme (that’s an argument I repeatedly loose ... what to call the next big release of MODx)? To me MODx should be more along the lines of 1.5 right now, but that’s another argument for another thread.

The beauty of OS X in general and Leopard in particular is that unless you really look you don’t notice most of the stuff because it just works intuitively. (Except for spaces ... that’s got a bit of polish needed yet.) Data detectors, time machine, pervasive media browsers system wide, system-update dispatched print drivers (and configuring printers in general for that matter), parental controls (if you have kids you understand), spotlight (finally fast and super-usable) ...

For me OS X is an very cool development/testing platform that makes me considerably more productive. More productive means I can support my family with less effort, and actually spend some quality time with them on occasion, with a clear(er) head and maybe even a bit less stress. Follow a quick bit of advice and you’re got a fully functional testing platform on your local machine, including a mail server that just works.

One last comment re: the iPhone. My parents are techno-disabled and yet I get pictures emailed and SMS messages from them. That would NEVER have happened on any other handset. Apple is insanely great at making technology accessible, and with that no one can argue. Thank goodness (for them) that the folks in Redmond and now the mobile makers are good at cloning innovation.

Besides all that, OS X is just prettier.