A rant about design and CMS

Hi All

Not been long in MODx but read a lot of posts.

MODx seems a great framework. All seem to agree on that point.

I have no idea how many professional developers/designers are using MODx for their products.

OR how much money is being made by above.

IMHO those using the product for gain should be able to give back to the community something of value.

1. The easy one MONEY say 10% of Fee Paid by client.
2. 10% of time taken to complete Paid Project.
(a) Writing new add-ons fully documented
(b) Improving or converting existing add-ons(3PC’s)
(c) Improving core documentation.
(d) Time spent on answering queries on forum.

The last one is already covered by some who must spend well over the 10% I suggested but the number is limited and does not apply to all. (For some that would be an easy copout)

I know there is no way of policeing this and is very much open to abuse.
But if others see this is how the system works.
Maybe they would be tempted to give it a try.

The core design team (I know you are all over worked) could define where help is needed and if possible give some indication of priorities and guide lines for the developement of *vital* add-ons.(3PC’s)

Those of us that just do this for FUN could only contribute in time as and where available.

Any money collected could I am sure be put to good use. From what I have seen from contributions I would not like to keep myself let alown a family.

Just my thoughts!!!

That’s what I am talking about, there already seems a perception that there can be a business model created which can pay people’s bills while making modx a bigger player...I wish I was one of those millionaires who got out of the market just before the .com bust, because I wouldn’t think twice about dropping 100k into the core team’s pockets.

I believe modx should always be free and that coders, who are willing, keep up their good work providing badly needed snippets to help people produce good websites on their own. But, alas, I am far too left-brained, my background is in fine arts, I can make a decent looking site, I can fill it up with beautiful product photography, I can create some decent icons and graphics but I need backup on the truly heavy coding side. modx’s flexibility has already astounded me at what I have been able to accomplish thus far(if it weren’t for the help of people here, of course I wouldn’t have been able to do much.) @wiseguy, I am truly envious of you, I wish I had the power to be as creative with code as I am with shape and color.

If coders can become even more enthusiastic about adding onto modx’s already impressive model for what a CMS should(could) be, then maybe one day I could get to the level of expertise that people like wiseguy enjoy. The reason is because, already, modx has presented me with code that let’s me understand the concepts of php, when I look at a snippet, and I understand what it’s function is supposed to be, things become clear, I find myself understanding that I can reuse that with another function...I could, and have, gotten countless books on the subject, but as with xhtml and css, unless I look and do I can’t learn. (does that make sense? ) I mean it took me all of a half an hour to get an extra like easy gallery to look the way I wanted it to, and I am a novice!

Please though don’t create a non-commercial watermarked version and a paid for commercial version, true open source helps the little guy make a go of it, and in the end we see this attitude being paid back by the slow but inevitable acceptance of big business and the empowerment of those without resources especially those of us who reside in the third world.

case in point,(maybe getting off track here) but my first computer (well if you don’t take into account the trash80 I had as a kid when I lived in the states anybody up for a dos game of Oregon trail?) was an old POS running windows 98, (yeah I know some of you were pounding out command line in your cribs ) when MS dropped support for it I knew I had to do something, and I came across linux, I knew very little of computers, now I build my own, have a triple monitor setup (including one cintiq) dual nvidia cards, dual 1tb satas (RAID), i7 cpu 6 gigs ram (ddr3)and have a huge amount of proprietary software on a proprietary OS) but all of my personal computing, on my two laptops and third desktop is on Linux, all my banking etc. My children are learning photography and image manipulation with the gimp, vectors with inkscape, 3-d modeling with blender, and writing their own web sites via a text editor (the way I should have learned from the get go)... I am here to this level precisely because of open source and the offerings made by those who code with the gnu in mind. But, I am definitely willing to do my share by paying for something that someone put their sweat and tears into. And I will sadly admit, I haven’t made a donation to modx (no clients just remodeled my own site), times are tight, but If a client approaches me for work and I can meet their demands, heck ya I will buy an extra that helps me accomplish that.

ok, too much coffee sorry..

Great post and it convinced me to do a donation, not that much, but it’s a start...

This is a great rant... I actually hesitate to even call it a rant. I have heard/said many of the same things. My CMS/F history prior to MODx was a nightmare, now I am 100% committed and virtually every site I work on will be driven by MODx except for projects that are dependent on a specific niche like for example eCommerce (which is an issue with MODx, many nice commerce solutions but I have not found a solid one... just look at Lemon Stand... very much like MODx). There will never be a tool that is perfect for every task… but MODx is perfect for most tasks for sure.

MODx is an incredible framework. I am very passionate about what it offers and I haven’t even started to look at all that Revolution has to offer. The core development team is incredible, as far as I can tell they are extremely committed and devote effort, time and money to the project. It is fore sure a competent and fantastic team which makes me feel very confident in the longevity of MODx. And don’t get me started on the community, there is nothing bad I can say about the community, this is by far the best most friendly and most responsive community I have been a part of. The MODx community very much shares the responsibility for the success of this project.

Based on the growing number of people sending me RFPs ranging from small personal projects to huge corporate projects, MODx is steadily growing in popularity at very much a global level. I also know that there are books being written and everyday I see more and more interesting blog posts talking about MODx. Currently most of my clients are in Europe, second largest area is Canada and the US is in 3rd at the moment, but I have developed MODx driven sites for clients in Africa, South America and Asia as well. The increase in popularity is undoubtably based on the community’s passion which is a direct reflection on the outstanding product that MODx is.

Getting money to the MODx core devs is fundamental, as is having funding for key add-ons. On the issue of the add-ons, as a freelance developer I have developed several add-ons for clients that would be greatly beneficial to the community, however the client is not interested in sharing them... and as the hired developer, under contract, I am limited. This is ugly and I hate it, but some clients like to have an edge over other, mainly their competition, and specially if they spend thousands of dollars to do it. However, the community does benefit indirectly in the sense that I am willing to share all my experience from developing these add-ons. By the way I am also working on a project with a few other devs to provide some cool MODx goodies… but I will limit the shameless self promotion for now… but just wanted to share that as the demand increases and the developer community grows that there will undoubtably be more tools available, both commercial and free. The down side is that as the MODx dev community grows the competition aslo grows which can also play a role in what people are willing to share.

Which brings me to an insight, MODx is so flexible and in so many ways easy to develop for, that it can be it’s own enemy. I have in countless occasions developed add-ons that are specific to projects I am working on. I have @ 30 or 40 in a folder on my computer ranging from calendar apps to alternatives to wayfinder and ditto. They are easy and simple, basic PHP stuff working together with the MODx API to perform specific tasks and they either get buried in a forum post (i will sometimes post them as a response to a question to illustrate a solution) or never make it in to the repository. I will put more effort on making these available, my big problem is I am stuck on having them perfect before releasing them and that keeps me from putting them down… this is an issue I am working on getting over since it is a problem in other aspects of life as well. It would be nice to have a group of devs who are interested in taking rough ideas and building them up to make them more flexible for the community, I would be happy to work with others in taking these ideas further. It is a great way to learn MODx and PHP as well.

I like the idea of having certified MODx developers who contribute a % of revenue from projects back to the core project. I would sign up for this program for sure. The only potential issue is, that in many cases the client would rather pay 10% less for the service. Since price is a leading factor in the competitive development business this could cause me to be outbid (or under bided) and essentially loose out. I think that if we keep the % lower that there would be more people willing to adhere to this principal.

I have to say that I have been away from the forum for a few months and am not up to date with all that has been going on.

Ok... I guess my response is almost a rant... but I love these topics. I have no idea if anything I just said makes any sense but I am very much committed to MODx and it is a topic that gets me fired up.

Ryan, MODx team and the community… keep up the fantastic work!!! I apologize for my lack of contribution lately, will try to come over and play more. And special thanks to Zi and MODxClub for posting a link to this topic on FaceBook which is what caught my attention and brought me in from the shadows.

Now I have to go to the hospital... I think I blew out an ear drum chewing gum in the mountains yesterday.

@dev_cw I think you hit the nail on the head about posting solutions, I can’t tell you how many hours I have put into scroogling and searching these forums, and perhaps an area with an alphabetical list, not random post, about solutions would be great (hate to think about the work that would have to go into drudging these up, my modx bookmark folder is chock full of thread posts)

and about developing extras, a blanket price should be an option, think about this way,

first, the modx core team recieves an inquiry or puts out a list of the most asked for features.

second they deem whether or not it is basic code that increases the production time of the end user or complex enough to go into the commercial repos.

three each extra is could be 10 dollars per deployment half goes to modx and half to the person(s) who developed it, not enough to break the bank and have the poverty stricken designer forgo diapers for his/her kids, but enough to push volume and show a great return.

How many downloads has modx had in the past week? now imagine what a real estate extra (I keep using this as an example ) could bring in? there is no bidding, no price competition, it’s ten bucks and volume. Plus ten bucks isn’t enough to have someone up in arms if there should be a problem and it would give incentive to write step by step tuts gzipped with the package.

also it’s too bad you posted about this being on facebook, I almost posted a link to the website for my book, now it would, as you put it, look like shameless self promotion.

a little side note to dev_cw, has mission beach changed much since I lived there?

p.s. someone might also say: "hey, I bought an extra and it wasn’t exactly what I needed, then I had to buy another!" yeah, ok you are out of pocket for 20bucks but the money you get by making a client happy and getting a good reference will most assuredly have you back in starbucks lattes once again!

Great thread. I plan on reading it again...

From my standpoint I always sense this invisible devision between code developers and designers. Its rare for an individual to be good at both. Much of the MODx discussion focus on the application, PHP and making things happen. I sort of wish there was more emphasis on designers and making MODx sites work for them. I think the MODx project would expand more as a result.

I can’t tell you how often I have become humbled and impressed with the knowledge of many of the MODx gurus on this forum - but when I venture over to their own sites I am often surprised how ordinary or limited these sites actually are. Its surprising in a strange way. If I was not totally impressed and familiar with the individual’s knowledge base and experience I would not have given many of these sites a second glance.

In short I wish there was more of a culture within the MODx arena that delivered this simple message: "look how cool this is - this is why its cool - and this is how you would go about using the same building blocks..." More working examples and documentation that focus on the imagination of users, designers and even code jockeys. Instead I see more lists of extras, modules, long parameter choices and dry reading WiKi text than anything.

Pick up any guide or instruction booklet for any Apple product or software title and you can tell they totally get this concept. These guys are the best at painting a picture even while explaining the workings of a complicated subject like Final Cut Pro for example.

I think part of this is that guys who are brilliant at code and development lack the skills (or time) for communicating what their widgets actually do. I find this to be true over in the Wordpress and other CMS camps as well. Expression Engine does do a good job here.

All that pushed aside for one moment, I will say this: MODx is a GREAT CMS for designers. Its so nice to build a clean XHTML document and have it validate without having to worry about tearing apart some complicated "theme" structure...

Quote from: modxlearner123 at Apr 22, 2010, 12:01 PM

...my background is in fine arts, I can make a decent looking site, I can fill it up with beautiful product photography, I can create some decent icons and graphics but I need backup on the truly heavy coding side.

I can haggle together some interesting functionality with PHP and JQuery, but I can’t design worth beans! Hours of blood, sweat and tears struggling with layout and CSS produce definitely useful but funky-looking applications. Don’t even talk about how long it takes me to get a balanced, pleasant looking gradient background image! So what I do is make snippets and plugins and modules. Maybe you can specialize in templates, even Manager templates, and mini-templates for eForm, Jot and Ditto layouts. I’m getting sick of vanilla blocky forms! And Jot can do some really nice things with lists like restaurant menus and FAQ lists with the right structure and CSS for its elements.

For example, I’m demoing an event calendar app in beta, and really need to come up with some kind of nice look for it. http://www.sottwell.com/mxcalendar.html (the "Pager" template is one of the great designs Scotty Delicious produced when he was active with MODx). It’s all done with mini-templates, like Ditto and friends, so somebody with a flair for design could make a really spectacular theme for it.

One potential issue is that we use a series of tools in modx to put together any given project. For example a real estate site can easily be developed with Ditto, Wayfinder, AjaxSearch (or that other very cool snippet that does multiple parameter searches, cant remember the name right now). And with ManagerManager we could clean up the manager interface to keep things easy to manage. Once I give this away one time, since the tools are all readily available, there will most likely not be a repeat purchase, thus potentially limiting the income to a single sale. The marketplace for MODx is still very slim, and the competition is growing.

Which brings me back to the MODx Certified Developers program. If a dev was receiving an endorsement or a ’recommendation’ from MODx as an approved developer, it may make it so that they could potentially attract better projects and the certification itself would be the ’edge’, thus giving them an incentive, as comercial devs, to share more dev knowledge as well as give back to the project in the form of revenue.

OK, go ahead and call me a MODx whore... it sucks to talk about money on an open source project, but in the end we all need to make a living

I was not meaning to use 10% as a fixed value it was just a figure I picked.

Maybe I was thinking biblically or 10% on Restaurant Bill or 10% surity or 10% deposit but 10% seems to come up a lot.

Possibly we should use the commission % on realestate deals(modxlearner123).

I don’t think that matters.

What is vital is the core developers must be able to sustain a living from MODx.

Where would the community be without these hero’s

How would those that make their living from MODx survive

Use Joomla, Drupal or and then spend >25% more time to complete the same project.

Would anyone make an estimate of the money made by professionals outside the core team in a year.

QUESTION

If I tell a client I can save you $10,000 if we use an existing add-on.
Will they still want me to write a specific solution to give them market exclusive code.(that can be ’easily’ reverse engineered)

Maybe I am just not seeing something here.
As per normal. I only seem to be able to work logically.(as you can see not a designer)

I would love one day to be like Susan or BobRay with their knowledge and willingness to share (not to leave out many other wonderfull members of this community) but the list is tooooo longgggg.

Just a thought.

Quote from: Photowebmax at Apr 22, 2010, 01:02 PM

I can’t tell you how often I have become humbled and impressed with the knowledge of many of the MODx gurus on this forum - but when I venture over to their own sites I am often surprised how ordinary or limited these sites actually are. Its surprising in a strange way. If I was not totally impressed and familiar with the individual’s knowledge base and experience I would not have given many of these sites a second glance.

I’m trying (unsuccessfully) not to take this personally.

Like Susan, I struggle with design. I’m also not all that interested in it. I would much rather visit a site that makes it easy to find what I want than one that looks impressive. Of course it’s nice to have both, but it’s also a matter of time allocation. I can spend time struggling to make my sites look good or I can spend it adding useful information. I suspect that most of my site visitors would prefer the latter. That’s certainly how I feel about the sites of other MODx experts.

Your point about making MODx more attractive and useful to designers, however, is a good one, IMO.