0.9.7 or Cake for a Personal Commercial Project?

Hey all,

I know that this is a bit heretical for me to ask this question but it has bothered me for a while and I have still not figured it out on my own.

What I want to do is build a custom app that is basically a shopping mall (something similar to Etsy.com) with:
[list]
• users with shops
• users who buy
• a paypal transaction system
• a shop manager system
• a profile manager
• login system and user management
• transaction reporting for shops
• commenting
• feedback and etc...

I know that a number of these things can be handled with MODx for sure, but some of the trickier bits for me are the management interfaces that are tied to individual users, shops with individual account information.

I don’t want to see anyone going to the "manager" like in MODx, I would like to see users have a front end management system to control profiles and shops and transaction histories and such.

I think this might all be doable in 0.9.7 but I am looking to get started now and once it is up, until it is generating revenue, I won’t want to updgrade the core.

I would love to hear suggestions or ideas on what I should do.

As a further caveat, this would be the largest project I have ever tried to develop on my own so I may want to play a bit with it too.[/li][/list]

You might consider xPDO + Smarty as an alternative as well. I’ve found it quite convenient for quickly building easy to maintain sites with database stuff used only for custom data and not involved in the content management at all. With this or Cake or Symfony or any other pure framework though, you will definitely have to do more coding. I just personally think xPDO + Smarty would require the least amount of effort or complexity.

The benefit of using 0.9.7 would be the content management features, templating, intelligent URL routing, caching, etc., already built-in. Trying to do a project with any framework from scratch like this would be a nightmare IMHO, but I’m biased and want people using the code (be it MODx 0.9.7 or xPDO) so it gets tested and improved; so take that with a grain of salt (but then use MODx or xPDO).

Also heretical.. =) but i’ve been reading through some stuff on drupal lately and they’ve done some really good stuff in the last year/18 months. The main thing is their:

- unified user (no admin/user types) (coming in .97)
- cck (template variables)
- views (point+click way to see your TVs, content).
- and cck ’modules’ (pluggable aka TV widgets. there’s quite a few of them).

I give em props for doing a lot in the last 18 months. It’s come a long way. It can be pretty resource intensive on larger sites (btw, what’s the speed / resource stats for .97? I hadnt heard if it’s supposed to be faster, etc.)

I’m looking at it for 2 potential community sites, and there’s A LOT to wade through, (and you dont want to use 6.0 yet as it doesnt have the main modules updated yet cck and views).

Chuck

PS - please dont put me in MODx timeout =)

The right tool for every purpose (although I have used butter knives as both screwdrivers and hammers...) and if I needed to work up a serious community portal type site, then I probably would not use MODx, but would check out a few of the "YAPS" systems and pick the one that seemed most appropriate.

Have you looked at Silverstripe? It’s an MVC framework, but with an attractive (if somewhat buggy) MODx-like content manager.

Hey all,

I don’t know why I felt that it was heretical. I don’t know if I could build this on a CMS anyway. I don’t think a YAPS is what I am looking for as I don’t want all the overhead on an install. It is my aim to build it so it is fairly lean and then add to it as needed over install a junkpile and remove stuff I don’t.

@Jason, I guess for me the issue with xPDO is that I am not a programmer enough to know what it all means. To CakePHP’s credit they have or at least have the impression of a well documented framework and near complete API but the distinct advantage I see in Cake is that they have a large user base with lots of experience. That being said I am not afraid to try new things I just am the type of person who needs to see how someone did something first, dissect it and build my own or incorporate some of others until I gain understanding. I’d love to see code examples and despite its utter uselessness (since who would really build a blog?) the Cake Blog tutorial has merits in that I can see something built out and make connections between concepts and code application.

From a realism viewpoint I know that Facebook and mySpace have had rebuild after rebuild so I don’t necessarily need to aim to build a perfect app just build functioning element after functioning element and refactor as needed.

I had just wondered if it all could be built on 0.9.7 or if it would be like the other systems that would have unnecessary overhead as I don’t plan to use all the features of the CMS that are included. I think that building on any YAPS or CMS/F would inherently be more bloated than I’d like.

I think that my best bet is a clear MVC framework even if it means more work.

Any more thoughts are encouraged and appreciated--especially with regard to xPDO and Smarty

Quote from: smashingred at Mar 13, 2008, 07:40 AM

@Jason, I guess for me the issue with xPDO is that I am not a programmer enough to know what it all means. To CakePHP’s credit they have or at least have the impression of a well documented framework and near complete API but the distinct advantage I see in Cake is that they have a large user base with lots of experience. That being said I am not afraid to try new things I just am the type of person who needs to see how someone did something first, dissect it and build my own or incorporate some of others until I gain understanding. I’d love to see code examples and despite its utter uselessness (since who would really build a blog?) the Cake Blog tutorial has merits in that I can see something built out and make connections between concepts and code application.

I think that my best bet is a clear MVC framework even if it means more work.

Any more thoughts are encouraged and appreciated--especially with regard to xPDO and Smarty

Ok, granted, our current lack of documentation sucks. But we have the advantage of seeing where everyone else has already been. And you know you’ll get attention from the lead developer.

I have plenty of code samples I’m willing to share privately (they are too specific to customers in most cases to just put out publicly), and well, you’re either gonna using an MVC framework and code it, or your going to use something that provides a way to do it without coding. How much more difficult each framework is to accomplish this with depends entirely on your requirements, the specific features of each framework, and the limitations of each framework.

I will not pretend to know or evaluate the CakePHP framework, and I hear good and bad things from those that choose it, but, the limited number of people who I have convinced to use xPDO and Smarty to attack a project have been extremely satisfied (to my knowledge anyway; damn where’s shaun to back me up). You have the advantage of the xPDO/Smarty examples that are the 0.9.7 manager as well (MODx is just an extension to xPDO, adding a few functions to the CRUD), and once you build out one model with xPDO, doing another will be not only easy, but possibly addictive (if you’re as geeky as I am anyway).

I just haven’t seen another PHP O/RM that doesn’t get in your way or require the absolute latest environment to run, Smarty is stable and proven, and the combination with xPDO makes MVC a piece of Cake IMHO. But then again I’m a programmer, and would never even consider writing the letters MVC in a post (or implementing a project like you described) if I wasn’t. I’d buy the software I need or hire an MVC-expert.

Check QCodo and give it a try. It is a framework where all the database interaction is auto generated, when you change your model and add tables or fields to a table, just regenerate and all the CRUD will be done perfect for you without touching other parts of the application.

It is an MVC OOP framework and it does not use activerecord scaffolding. It has native javascript and ajax (both client and server) calls done as easy as easy as one statement call. Other things mail, cache, soap,... tons more all done easily. I am just learning to use it so I haven’t tried the advance stuff.

For display it has QForms, its own template engine, if you would like to call it like that, so you can design any web application/site that you want. The documentation is lacking but the examples site is perfectly up to date and it is used as a means of documentation... examples of using the code instead of a manual.

Give it a look and a try... if you need to see an app written using QCodo, head to www.chess.com and see what you can do with it... the chess.com team is comprised of 2 guys!!! using QCodo of course... while you are there register and enjoy some good chess matches...

Jason,

Since I am still learning and have the luxury of no baggage when it comes to MVC frameworks or any PHP framework for that matter. I know I want to build it OOP as I intend on making it so others can come after me and help extend it. I don’t doubt that I could get some nice personal attention from the lead developer genius (when time permits) so I’d be willing to give it a whirl.

If you have any suggestions on what I should look at first. I do have the tables and some relationships thought out but since I was originally planning on using CakePHP (this was over a year ago and before I had a chance to play with 097) that some ideas as to where I might go to learn some basics of xPDO and smarty. I guess the first thing for me would be to build out a part of the application and go from there.

From a development standpoint I think I am way beyond my real skill set but who ever said you don’t succeed if you don’t try eh? Since this is a personal venture I have time not money and some clever ideas. One thing I get hung up on when thinking about this is the user auth and permissions seem to always get in the way of the other views in my mind. Does it make sense to build out the app functions and then assign permissions to them or vice-versa?

Cheers,

Jay

PS: I guess there is a point where I have to shift from designer to developer and the only way to do that is to build apps otherwise I am just a designer who knows a little PHP (dangerous).

I guess there is a point where I have to shift from designer to developer and the only way to do that is to build apps otherwise I am just a designer who knows a little PHP (dangerous).

This all depends on your "path". I am not very fond of the jack of all trades principle where one person designs, develops and does everything else related to a project. The reason being that unless you have plenty of time and can devote yourself to being good at all the tasks you will end up only being half-way good at all the steps. You know what I mean? For example if you were involved in php development you may never have reached your level of skills with css. I started doing a bit of everything, html, flash, php, asp,design, copy text, manage the business etc... and it really took it’s toll on my skill level to the point that I was not a designer, or a developer or a copywriter and my only marketable skills were as a project manager (because I knew a bit about everything but not a lot about anything). Since then I have partnered up with a designer and now only focus on building (I hesitate to call is development since I am not really a developer). I still suffer from the time that I tried to do it all, and can’t help but thinking that if I had only focused on certain elements I could have developed the skill level to actually be something rather than a a little of everything. This is from personal experience and other may not share this problem.

As for the original issue I would definitely go with xPDO. Why, well if you are serious about your commitment to MODx and MODx will be based on xPDO this could only help you in the long run. Why go through he process of learning CAKE (which seems very good by the way, but I prefer CodeIgniter) when you may never use it again.

Just my 2 bits