Community Concerns

YJ if you are going to call out a personal conversation publicly please do not do so vaguely. All this smoke and mirrors is silly. Let's address this. Was it in reference to the time(s) I advocated aggressively that MODX was becoming outdated, or already has in many ways, and we could do better? Is this a reference to my public doubts, after being fired with little explanation, of whether or not I'll be able to stay in the MODX community? Something else?

No one should have the place to tell someone you "know they wouldn't chose to invest time and effort in MODX CMS" based on conjecture or even a previous conversation with that person. Let's look at actions, which tend to speak for themselves.

I'll have you know that since being abruptly terminated for no reason other than a "change in direction" at the company:

• I've continued to submit pull requests to Revolution
• Aside from some time to lick my wounds, remained active in the MODX community
• Been working with modmore on several projects and initiatives
• Via modmore donated 10% of every Redactor sale directly to the LLC

I've wanted to do away with the idea that there is one MODX Manager, with it's one user experience since the first few days I used MODX. That has not changed, and I'm now even more focused on finding a way to make that happen.

Shaun, we could go back and forth like this forever. You and I have differences of opinion in what constitutes "clarification" for the Community. From where I stand, many of your comments are inaccurate - consisting of "spin", as you call it - and it's tempting for me to go through the motions of demonstrating why.

But that would just continue the drama, wouldn't it?

I mean, we could probably collaborate on a script for a long-running dramatic series based on the events of over a year ago, and the vastly different and impassioned opinions people have about those events

But instead, let me pay you the courtesy and respect to cede that some of your points are valid and seem to be coming from an interest in the future of the MODX CMS. How about we focus instead on this common interest, because I think everyone here, can get behind a lasting, bright future for MODX!

The idea of a more formal group of community contributors, a "foundation" of sorts, has been discussed internally for months. In fact, if you ask Mark, the genesis of his document(s) on the subject coincide with some related discussions between he and I. However there are many, many details to be ironed out, and I would speculate that a feasible solution may be significantly different than any proposed to-date.

It's true the LLC needs help with the OSS project. I take Bob's comments to heart about feeling "locked out" in a way. I know there needs to be vast improvements in this area.

Perhaps we can start with a conversation? At the Google Hangout I mentioned in this thread? There may be things we can implement sooner than later to give community members more visibility into current developments, and direction as to how they can contribute. Accelerated yet incremental improvements may yield faster gains than the monolithic restructuring that a "foundation" may entail. Just some thoughts...

Lastly I'd like to address a comment that my previous post may be construed as demonizing MODX Cloud and its progenitors (Shaun included). I acknowledge without hesitation Shaun's unparalleled contribution to MODX CMS, and as such my own career, for which I'm continually grateful. As for Cloud, to this day I'm an avid fan of the tool. Both myself and the Pro Services team here at the LLC use and benefit greatly from MODX Cloud on a daily basis, and I believe it to be a competitive advantage for MODX CMS.

However the CMS takes first priority for me, and first place in my heart, and there have been moments in history where that sadly was not the case for everyone in the organization. That brings me to the gist of my original post:

Today, there's no shortage of love and commitment to MODX from the people in MODX, LLC, and that in itself is something to be positive about, don't you think?

OMG JP, I seem to have knack for inadvertently pissing you off these days.

Was not trying to "call anyone out". In no way, shape, or form, was I trying to diminish your contribution to MODX. It was a passing comment based on discussions you and I had, and furthermore a completely hypothetical situation, but you've taken offence and for that I'm sorry. Surely you know it makes me very, very happy to see your passion for MODX re-ignited.

FWIW, I've made very public efforts to extoll your virtues, wish you all the best, and express my regret over the unfortunate situation surrounding your previous employment with MODX LLC. So, you know, can you cut me some slack bro? LOL

Quote from: sepiariver at Jun 03, 2014, 03:32 AM

OMG JP, I seem to have knack for inadvertently pissing you off these days.

Was not trying to "call anyone out". In no way, shape, or form, was I trying to diminish your contribution to MODX. It was a passing comment based on discussions you and I had, and furthermore a completely hypothetical situation, but you've taken offence and for that I'm sorry. Surely you know it makes me very, very happy to see your passion for MODX re-ignited.

FWIW, I've made very public efforts to extoll your virtues, wish you all the best, and express my regret over the unfortunate situation surrounding your previous employment with MODX LLC. So, you know, can you cut me some slack bro? LOL

I took this to imply that you *know* I am not like "the others who still do" and am no longer interested in investing time and effort in MODX CMS, which is appalling and couldn't be further from the truth.

Quote from: sepiariver at Jun 03, 2014, 03:32 AM

Everyone will have to make that choice on their own. I for one: if I woke up tomorrow and found myself a freelance, self-employed web professional again, I would, without even the tiniest moment of hesitation, choose to invest my time and effort in MODX CMS.

I know from our discussions JP that you don't feel the same way. That's fine. But others still do.

I was literally Skyping Mark and making plans with how I could still be involved with MODX before you were even done firing me, but go on about that hesitation you know I seem to have.

If by cut you some slack YJ you mean let you speak for me, no I will not do that.

(EDIT: this post does not take into account the last few replies as they were posted while I was posting)

YJ, your politically correct response and everything-is-well-just-wait-and-see-attitude is a perfect example of communication that does not contain ANY form of project leadership that guides people on where to help, just "we've got it" and "coming soon". You offer not a single suggestion on what the community can do to help, or how to move forward, you just tout your own horn about the wins amongst the fails.

I don't want this thread to become about you, me, or anyone in particular so I'll leave it at that, but I hope you read back your post and realise you just proved the point of this thread.

Jason, I'm glad we got to chat earlier. Your insights and point of view are highly appreciated and belong in a thread like this. I think your post is exactly what is needed to move towards constructive progress. I do think there eventually needs to be a strict line between the project leadership (wether that's a foundation, open governance board) and the LLC business concerns, but I tend to agree we need to get there progressively. We could launch a foundation tomorrow and it would fail because it was not prepared properly and not yet up for the task. But by taking some time to progressively get to a place where the project leadership works better for everyone the outcome will be better.

You also show a tone of voice that LLC needs more off. Honest, not shielding the hard subjects or pretending all is fine. In terms of this thread, I'm just going to think of you being representative of the LLC, if that's okay, hoping you'll be able of making the case for what you're working on internally with people that aren't aligned with your ideas. Even if it's just words, they speak of a direction for the LLC and community I can 100% get behind and will gladly help accomplish if there is any way I can help.

Shaun, it's nice to see you in the forums hearing your point of view. You've hit the nail on the head several times. While part of your post was giving me the impression you think MODX is past a point of no return, I think you just mean to say running the project no matter with what sort of structure will be challenging because of the issues you highlighted. That is absolutely true and why the community needs to get together with the project leadership as this cannot - and should not - rest in Jason's hands alone. Glad to agree with you.

Re your next post:

Ok, this is where I have to step in and correct - we all sat in a room in the SoftLayer offices during the first MODX LLC meetup: all of us (Mark was there, he can attest), and agreed that we were going to take a three-pronged stance to the LLC: improve Cloud to increase revenues to fund the OSS project; define a clear roadmap for MODX and 2.3 and continue work on it; and scale the Professional Services department to be self-sustainable (which eventually happened).

Yep, Cloud, Community & Complete.


I just want to clarify one thing in public that several people have asked me to comment about this thread in private, which is that I still think MODX (the project) is awesome and will be around or years to come, however I do believe we need to see changes to the project leadership (with a foundation, or simply a lot better and open communication from the LLC) to propel MODX into 2015 with awesome releases, lots of core contributions from lots of talented people and structure. The fact this discussion is happening is a sign of people being committed and interested in the future of MODX. [ed. note: markh last edited this post 12 years, 3 months ago.]

Good to read all these replies, I am now understanding what everyone is after, atleast finally I see more folks understanding points I raised years ago about the project but besides that I think on the communication front it would be good if someone over at MODX LLC just admit that this whole charade have been handled incorrectly and that is going to change by doing this that and etc. I think one of the first step would be to start stating when something is going to be delayed and say why, that way if you need community help we all know where to focus on.

I see everything on Github is now in milestones which states overdue on 2.3 beta 1 https://github.com/modxcms/revolution/issues?milestone=43&state=open, I don't work for or have any influence on anyone at high level in the LLC but I would think having a blog that keep users updated with progress of current build would put some at ease.

Can someone also point me to some good examples of roadmaps you have seen for OSS out there please? I tried searching for some but couldn't find any.

Thank you Shaun for all your input and hope all is going well over at Bigcommerce.

Also Folks can we refrain from personal attacks, I have met some of you posting here and even though I don't know any of you personally I can only think you are all nice people so please keep away from the attacks.

Quote from: easylancer at Jun 03, 2014, 04:22 AM

Also Folks can we refrain from personal attacks, I have met some of you posting here and even though I don't know any of you personally I can only think you are all nice people so please keep away from the attacks.

Amen sister.

Reading people's true emotional intent through bulletin board postings is like trying to translate the Dead Sea Scrolls using a Chinese-Hungarian dictionary.

Quote from: easylancer at Jun 03, 2014, 04:22 AM

Can someone also point me to some good examples of roadmaps you have seen for OSS out there please? I tried searching for some but couldn't find any.

Symfony
Drupal
ProcessWire

Symfony has the best defined release process I think.

That being said, symfony has a strong leader but A LOT of high level contributors. Same goes for Drupal.

I think ProcessWire is the closest to Modx in size and technical level. The leader (another Ryan :p) is communicating a lot, and involve and encourage community in future evolution. He also explains why some things don't make it in the core etc.
It's very community driven, it somehow reminds me of Modx a few years back.

Thanks for that Stephane, that list is really helpful. I am sure it will be helpful for folks at the LLC to have a look at too.

Yeah I think the processwire one makes sense for MODX although I can see where the Symfony one could be used also, their Release process document is quite good. http://symfony.com/doc/current/contributing/community/releases.html

I'm truly left to speculate which conversation YJ is referencing that left him knowing I chose or would choose not to invest my time and effort in MODX CMS. Are we vaguely citing passages from confidential conversations in the context of a terminated employee seeking justification for their termination here YJ? I'm going to go ahead and assume we are, please correct me if needed. So that you can be liable for your claim, feel free to post chat histories of anything I said, I hope by this point we all realize I wear my heart on my sleeve.

I’m not sure what my role in the MODX community will be for here on. Honestly I’ve lost faith in the ability to stay on track with releasing minor, let alone major versions of the software and aside from Redactor am planning on going back to strictly front end.

I can hear it now. Oh no. That's "toxic" and "scary".

I truly think the best thing I can do for MODX is go back to focusing heavily on front end, and build awesome front end tools free of backwards compatibility that MODX, or anyone/thing else can use. I think this goes along with Shaun's and Jason's points of getting away from the not invented here syndrome, and utilizing existing and proven and smaller pieces of technology.

I went to work full time at the LLC with one goal in mind, bringing creative freedom to a 3.0 Manager. I've spent literally over a year dreaming of what I would do, given the chance to work on what I told I would be given the chance to work on and never was. So I've had a lot of time to think about it, and what I recently realized is that in order to help MODX with some of it's front end woes, I need to find ways to work with and collaborate with the HTML5/CSS/JS communities as a whole, rather than just trying to find front end developers within the MODX community or recruit prominent ones into the MODX community (many of them don't even use a CMS and could care less).

In terms of this thread, I'm just going to think of [Jason] being representative of the LLC, if that's okay, hoping you'll be able of making the case for what you're working on internally with people that aren't aligned with your ideas.

I will do the same. The opportunity to work with, and under a Lead Architect such as Jason is something I worked hard for and was never willing to risk. Looking back on recent events, it's the most important thing I has as a team member, and something I consider myself lucky to still have since leaving the team. That's what is great about open source, nobody can take it away from you.
[ed. note: dinocorn last edited this post 12 years, 3 months ago.]