MODX Manager - can we make improvements?

Quote from: easylancer at Nov 24, 2013, 03:54 AM

I am a bit shocked by this, what is the percentage of the MODX userbase that use the manager with javascript turned off? (I think its 0, since it just doesn't work). Based on these facts, at what point does AngularJS destroy this experience, also you should note that users want a webapp to feel like a desktop app, hence why folks don't mind having apps fully JS enabled.

I agree, 99% of users will have JavaScript turned on and most will be using modern browsers. The issue with me isn't with whether or not a page is functional with or without JavaScript.

AngularJS is what HTML would have been, had it been designed for building web-apps.

The issue is that mutilating HTML with a framework that makes it work "the way it would if" could be putting the cart before the horse and lead to being backed into a dangerous corner. There are legitimate concerns with not building HTML first.

I'm not against AngularJS at all, I think it is a very promising option. I'm just wrestling with some of the assumptions it makes.

Quote from: dinocorn at Nov 24, 2013, 03:51 AM

It is actually funny you mention that. You can probably deduce that I'm not a huge fan of Bootstrap, but I do really like FuelUX.
http://exacttarget.github.io/fuelux/

So much that I started messing around with a Bootstrap to Sass translator.
https://github.com/thomas-mcdonald/bootstrap-sass#bootstrap-for-sass

I prefer Foundation to Bootstrap but i don't really mind using one either.

I'm guessing that if a front end css framework is chosen, it should be in accord with the underlying javascript technology. In the case of AngularJS, using an heavy (jQuery) script based framework would not be well advised.

Quote from: dinocorn at Nov 24, 2013, 04:12 AM

Quote from: easylancer at Nov 24, 2013, 03:58 AM

I have been using both LESS and Sass for years and must say I haven't come across this with LESS. Yet again the never use LESS again statement is a bit over the top. So if the community decides we want LESS to be used instead of Sass, we are likely to get a no from you since you are in-charge of MODX frontend dev tools. In my experience this is not inline with community driven open source project. As lossendae stated, some folks are more familiar with LESS, find it easier to setup on all OS and generally get on with the syntax because it is more CSS like.

Try compiling this using LESS. Was bombing on the gradient syntax for me the other day, which is an issue I've run into before with LESS.
https://gist.github.com/jpdevries/790c666f605591db40d2

I think I need to clarify that I'm striving to put more creative freedom into developing for the Manager, not take it away. Just because I'll never prefer to use LESS again doesn't mean the community can't. Again, Yomonger has an option to use LESS.

I just compiled this without any issues at all, not sure what your setup is and why it failed for you.

Quote from: lossendae at Nov 24, 2013, 04:19 AM

I'm guessing that if a front end css framework is chosen, it should be in accord with the underlying javascript technology. In the case of AngularJS, using an heavy (jQuery) script based framework would not be well advised.

That is a good point, and part of the reason why this is a complicated discussion.

Disclaimer: Many of these things being discussed are still very up in the air and open for discussion. Please don't think me voicing my opinion on one thing or another is any indication of an official decision.

I have the hope that the requirements for developing the Manager are relatively lightweight. I'd consider something like AngularJS to be lightweight, as it is optional to include jQuery and will include its own lighter utility if needed. I think that is a big plus because we may be able to do things like only include jQuery for no-touch devices that utilize more advanced features like drag-n-drop.

Will jQuery be included or required in 3.0 manager? TBD.

Quote from: dinocorn at Nov 24, 2013, 04:30 AM

Quote from: lossendae at Nov 24, 2013, 04:19 AM

I'm guessing that if a front end css framework is chosen, it should be in accord with the underlying javascript technology. In the case of AngularJS, using an heavy (jQuery) script based framework would not be well advised.

That is a good point, and part of the reason why this is a complicated discussion.

Disclaimer: Many of these things being discussed are still very up in the air and open for discussion. Please don't think me voicing my opinion on one thing or another is any indication of an official decision.

I have the hope that the requirements for developing the Manager are relatively lightweight. I'd consider something like AngularJS to be lightweight, as it is optional to include jQuery and will include its own lighter utility if needed. I think that is a big plus because we may be able to do things like only include jQuery for no-touch devices that utilize more advanced features like drag-n-drop.

Will jQuery be included or required in 3.0 manager? TBD.

I think it's good these decisions are being made, but I think it should be made in a private discussion and then put to the community at a later date, discussions like these can give off a false positive, especially when coming from someone on the MODX core team.

I appreciate all that you are doing JP and you are indeed heading in the right direction.

Quote from: easylancer at Nov 24, 2013, 04:38 AM

I think it's good these decisions are being made, but I think it should be made in a private discussion and then put to the community at a later date, discussions like these can give off a false positive, especially when coming from someone on the MODX core team.

I appreciate all that you are doing JP and you are indeed heading in the right direction.

Private discussions do exist, and I may have divulged too much. As a staff member, if we don't engage with the community enough we are criticized for it (as we should be). If we engage too much or too soon, we are criticized for it. If we ask for input on something we aren't polling the right way. It's 2:45AM on a Sunday morning and I still am a MODX Community member.

I'll do what I can to prevent confusion. That may be shutting back up until 2.3 is released, but I've been getting lots of questions about 3.0 and there are simply too many front end options out there for me to evaluate alone. I don't see any reason why the community shouldn't be able to, at least amongst itself, start discussing these things now. Whatever tools are chosen, I want them to be something the community can get behind.

To clarify AngularJS is on the table with just about anything else other than ExtJS. Any options proposed by myself or anyone else are going to be heavily scrutinized, evaluated and discussed.

Quote from: easylancer at Nov 24, 2013, 04:24 AM

I just compiled this without any issues at all, not sure what your setup is and why it failed for you.

When I was working on Yomonger over the weekend I really wanted the LESS files to be able to have an option to include the CSS the manager ships with and my tests weren't compiling do to some trouble with the webkit gradient syntax. Sometimes you have to escape by using a ~"" syntax.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/dotless/DYJqy3oOBUo
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5693492/webkit-gradient-produces-syntax-error-in-lesscss/5693768#5693768

I just tried again and I'm pleasantly surprised that the gist (expanded CSS from nightly 2.3 build) is compiling ok now using grunt-contrib-less. I'm not sure if it was because the CSS I was using might have been minified or something has changed since then, but I'll take it.