Bringing Evo back to life again

307 Posts

virtualbear Reply #471, 14 years, 3 months ago

hi,

wow, i would never had thought the conversation would take this turn but nevemind

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MODx Content Management System and PHP Application Framework
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it seems that evo is under the gpl licence and not the lgpl (lesser general...), being itself a fork from etomite as we all know here and which is under the GPL licence too...

that doens't mean everybody here have hoped this adventure would be able to continue under the modx trademark (cf yama above) the team is obviously reluctant to this (yes i've read opengeek's posts but the fact is atfer having myself ooooften asked for evo news without answer i know what the working team here can feel, actually, answers started to arrive after the word "fork" in this thread, am i wrong ?)

we understand, let's speak for myself, i do understand the breaking changes problem but what about revo and then cloud then ?

why not a modx evolution new branch accepting the fact it's the evolution spirit with a completely refactored core, which means breaking changes, the team said here and in the blog the code was a bit out of date, well, let's accept for those who want to, a new evolution with an up to date code, again, with breaking changes, we all know refactoring the code implies changes sooner or later

what the heck about that, would it prevent those who want to switch to revo from doing it, i hardly doubt it
what's sure is that it would have prevented a lot of people from switching to a completely different cms because evo is dead and they don't want to work with revo

would it be to complicated an offer, two branches of evo, the oldie and the new one, revo that's to take the same path as evo's + the coming cloud

if so, why does suddenly the conversation mood changes when it's obvious people here won't give up this project, whatever it means...
and, after all, doesn't this just prove how great we think evo, was, sorry, is ? let's go on

have swing [ed. note: virtualbear last edited this post 14 years, 3 months ago.]

réfléchir avant d'agir

1,098 Posts

microcipcip Reply #472, 14 years, 3 months ago

Quote from: virtualbear at May 31, 2012, 11:49 AM

and, after all, doesn't this just prove how great we think evo, was, sorry, is ?

Evolution is the best CMS ever. By now Evolution was supposed to be abandoned and deprecated, but thanks to Yama, who has been working all this time on improvements (amazing!), we can keep up with our competitors. As a reminder:

2007 - Most Promising Open Source CMS
MODX Evolution (first)

2009 - Overall Winner

MODX Evolution (second)

2010 - Open Source CMS Award

MODX Evolution (third)

2011 - ??

Source:

http://www.packtpub.com/article/open-source-awards-previous-winners
http://www.packtpub.com/open-source-awards-home

Jertix.org -> Web Design & Development, Motion Graphics | Follow me on Twitter | MODx Tutorials (in Italiano) | MODx Snippets (English)

172 Posts

TimGS Reply #473, 14 years, 3 months ago

Quote from: splittingred at May 31, 2012, 08:24 AM

You've never had a site pass through intermediate 'broken' stages during development?

The policy at MODX has always been that Pull Requests for MODX products that cause breakage will not be integrated until they fix or resolve the issues.

As far as I am aware there have been no pull requests from https://github.com/sjstoelting/evolution, and if this is the case, I do not see the issue.

Quote from: opengeek at May 30, 2012, 05:21 PM

We would love to give this group our blessing. And we've been making every possible effort to help get this effort reintegrated to the official Evo project, but the current state of Stefanie's 1.1.dev branch is not promising. There are a number of FATAL errors and breaking changes immediately visible, the sample site is completely broken, and I'm not going to continue reviewing this branch until it is stable and some clarity/documentation is provided on ALL of the changes that are being included in it.

It is entirely reasonable that you do not intend reviewing https://github.com/sjstoelting/evolution.

It is not reasonable to portray it as "not promising" or to shout FATAL errors when discussing a work in progress.

-- Tim.

4,149 Posts

splittingred Reply #474, 14 years, 3 months ago

Quote from: TimGS at May 31, 2012, 04:38 PM

As far as I am aware there have been no pull requests from https://github.com/sjstoelting/evolution, and if this is the case, I do not see the issue.

Pull Requests are the same as integrations to the develop branch. Migrating the changes in Stefanie's branch to the official MODX branch requires the same level of discrepancy and review.

It is entirely reasonable that you do not intend reviewing https://github.com/sjstoelting/evolution.

We have been reviewing it, and as Jason said, have found blocker issues preventing merging with the main repo.

It is not reasonable to portray it as "not promising" or to shout FATAL errors when discussing a work in progress.

It is *absolutely* reasonable to explain that merging an unstable branch into the main, branded branch of an active product is not something that we wish to do. We have some users who deploy Evolution from Git, and merging these changes would prevent them from doing so.

FATAL errors are in caps here because of PHP terminology, Jason is definitely in no way shouting. He is referring to E_NOTICE, E_ERROR, and E_FATAL error codes in PHP. E_FATAL errors (or FATAL as Jason referred to them), are ones that cause full and complete application shutdown. They are the type of errors that can take down an entire site.

We do not in any way allow changes to our stable branches with those types of errors. Not even in our development branches is such behavior allowed; any change that would cause such an error, if it's still in development, would go into a feature request or refactoring Git branch, and be migrated in *only* when it has reached sufficient stability to pass various unit tests and review, and ensure no E_ERROR or E_FATAL errors could be found. That Jason found E_FATAL errors so quickly in that branch means that we cannot, in good faith to the community using Evo actively now, allow those changes until they are resolved and fixed. Then, and only then, will migrations be allowed.

This is a standard, widely accepted process in any development community, and has been in ours to ensure the stability and continued collaborative development of our products.
[ed. note: splittingred last edited this post 14 years, 3 months ago.]

shaun mccormick | bigcommerce mgr of software engineering, former modx co-architect | github | splittingred.com

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1,231 Posts

yama Reply #475, 14 years, 3 months ago

OK, Shaun. I examine it.
(set $this->stopOnNotice = true; ) [ed. note: yama last edited this post 14 years, 3 months ago.]

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1,231 Posts

yama Reply #476, 14 years, 3 months ago

Hello, Jason.
Quote from: opengeek at May 30, 2012, 05:21 PM

There are a number of FATAL errors and breaking changes immediately visible, the sample site is completely broken

I really installed 1.1.dev branch and tested it.
However, I was not able to watch FATAL errors. sample site does not seem to fail, too...
Would you tell me concretely?
I make modifications as much as possible.

My env is xampp(Windows7, PHP5.3, MySQL5.5)

172 Posts

TimGS Reply #477, 14 years, 3 months ago

Quote from: yama at Jun 01, 2012, 06:30 AM

Hello, Jason.
Quote from: opengeek at May 30, 2012, 05:21 PM
There are a number of FATAL errors and breaking changes immediately visible, the sample site is completely broken
I really installed 1.1.dev branch and tested it.
However, I was not able to watch FATAL errors. sample site does not seem to fail, too...
Would you tell me concretely?
I make modifications as much as possible.

My env is xampp(Windows7, PHP5.3, MySQL5.5)

Issues can be flagged up at https://github.com/sjstoelting/evolution/issues?state=open.

-- Tim.

MODX Staff
12,272 Posts

Ryan Thrash Reply #478, 14 years, 3 months ago

During the past couple of years of creating a sustainable business for MODX, we didn't have the resources to continue active development and product management for Evo. I definitely understand people's frustration over this and I am sincerely sorry, and especially for yama, who did an amazing amount of work and rightfully felt ignored. (Not discounting everyone else that submitted pull requests … )

The timing of this discussion doesn't have anything to do with a threat of a fork, as those have existed for years now. But from our perspective as the keepers of the MODX product stack and brand, we think it's time to be clear and transparent about all the things that bear the MODX name. We definitely have zero interest in preventing something that would benefit users and the community.

To bring the proposed updates back as an official distribution, a few simple guidelines have to be adhered to. These aren't arbitrary demands or hurdles to thwart progress. They're what has worked for MODX over dozens of releases to ensure quality of releases with minimal security issues—just as identical or similar processes have for most other successful open source projects. Boy do we know how much effort this involves, but if someone can't step up to take on the effort, then we have to continue supporting Evo as we have through security updates only.

Here is all that is required needs to happen: 1) Someone takes the post of the lead integrator. They are the individual responsible for reviewing and accepting pull requests, preparing releases and liaising with the MODX team. 2) The new release cannot break or cause unintended effects for existing Evo sites. 3) The resulting community-driven release may not reflect unprofessionally or negatively on MODX as a company or a the brand.

As an organization with payroll to make for more than a dozen folks every 2 weeks, we have to focus on the future of MODX. We unfortunately can't allocate time to active management of the Evo codebase, but we're happy to help with the distribution of it as a MODX product so long as it's done in a manner that doesn't create increased support burdens, breaks existing sites or humiliates or invalidates what MODX stands for.

Jason's attempt at reviewing the code revealed there's apparently significant work to be done before it's ready for further review. We're happy to do so, and just need to know when. We're also here to talk one-on-one or in groups to anyone privately that's invested in the modernization of Evo. Help us help you! I've already reached out via PM to yama and would love to talk to Stefanie, too.

Again, we do sincerely apologize, and we look forward to seeing things move forward.

P.S.
This is now officially a Certified Grade A Prime Very Long Thread™. It's probably most productive to start new topics for specific discussions going forward. Please reach out when it's time for a review again.

Ryan Thrash, MODX Co-Founder
Follow me on Twitter at @rthrash or catch my occasional unofficial thoughts at thrash.me

172 Posts

TimGS Reply #479, 14 years, 3 months ago

Quote from: rethrash at Jun 01, 2012, 09:37 AM

Here is all that is required needs to happen: 1) Someone takes the post of the lead integrator. They are the individual responsible for reviewing and accepting pull requests, preparing releases and liaising with the MODX team. 2) The new release cannot break or cause unintended effects for existing Evo sites. 3) The resulting community-driven release may not reflect unprofessionally or negatively on MODX as a company or a the brand.

As an organization with payroll to make for more than a dozen folks every 2 weeks, we have to focus on the future of MODX. We unfortunately can't allocate time to active management of the Evo codebase, but we're happy to help with the distribution of it as a MODX product so long as it's done in a manner that doesn't create increased support burdens, breaks existing sites or humiliates or invalidates what MODX stands for.

I think everyone watching this thread realises you have your own priorities, be they Clouds, Revo, another MODX, or simply ensuring your pay cheques arrive.

However put yourself in the shoes of someone wanting to develop Evo. That someone may be enthusiastic, keen and knowledgeable - yet do they have to check in for approval with a group who now wants to devote as little time as possible to the Evo project?

Quote from: rethrash at Jun 01, 2012, 09:37 AM

Jason's attempt at reviewing the code revealed there's apparently significant work to be done before it's ready for further review. We're happy to do so, and just need to know when. We're also here to talk one-on-one or in groups to anyone privately that's invested in the modernization of Evo. Help us help you! I've already reached out via PM to yama and would love to talk to Stefanie, too.

There are three open bug reports at https://github.com/sjstoelting/evolution. I don't think anyone involved would claim that there cannot possibly be more, so if you know of any it would be useful to say what they are and post them there. Just saying things are "not promising", "completely broken" and there is "significant work to do" is not helpful (though I would agree with the latter).

There seems to be a consistent message now coming from the MODX team that implies that the new work on Evo is not up to scratch. Ironies aside, It is probably time to point out that the group now developing the Evo is - unlike the MODX team - going to be using it professionally on sites for their own clients. This may not happen tomorrow - it seems that again that a reminder is required that this is a work in progress - but it will happen.

Quote from: rethrash at Jun 01, 2012, 09:37 AM

The new release cannot break or cause unintended effects for existing Evo sites

I agree, and I am sure others do also. Having had problems and time overheads due to functionality that was present in Revo 2.0 that has already been dumped from the current Revo I do appreciate how important it is to maintain backwards compatibility.

-- Tim.

486 Posts

nickf08 Reply #480, 14 years, 3 months ago

modx3 = even more fragmentation. Unbelievable.
Hopefully it will be lighter and better and simpler than Revo.

Even though it has been mentioned, I would be surprised if there is an evo to modx3 upgrade path. There is no evo to revo path and that was promoted from the start.

This is reaching a tipping point for me.

Has the latest Evo development by Stefanie, Yama, Sottwell, Microcipcip et al stalled / ceased since the licence / quality control concerns that the modx team bought up?

Please turn forum email notifications back on.
[ed. note: nickf08 last edited this post 14 years, 3 months ago.]

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