We launched new forums in March 2019—join us there. In a hurry for help with your website? Get Help Now!
    • 36516
    • 179 Posts
    I've had IE issues with Evo *and* Revo. Minor things, mind, but still rather critical in the grand scheme. For example, in Evo I had a specific problem with the date picker no appearing at all. The solution for me was to tell IE9/10 to work in IE8 mode. Since upgrading to IE11 I've had to switch to FF permanently, though off the to of my head I can't actually remember the exact cause. I'll try to be more specific later.

    In Revo I have a few clients who've had trouble getting things to save properly. I suspect many of the issues have involved MIGX, having thought about it, which I've used successfully on several sites.

    Given how few sites I've built, and how many you clearly have, I'm surprised you haven't had troubles. It would certainly be good to get more feedback to corroborate my story, but I suspect few developers use IE.

    Tune out here if you don't care about the Windows vs OSx debate. I don't want to hijack the thread.

    Regard Apple, I want to make it clear that I do try to stay as open-minded as I can on the subject. I'm hardcore Windows, clearly, but I'm constantly on the look out for genuine redeeming features of OSx. I won't go as far as to say that it's "bad". It's just not nearly as good as Mac users would like to think. Ultimately I believe it all comes down to preference, and familiarity. People constantly tell me how OSx is "more intuitive", but those people are always people who don't even know how to use their Macs properly, whom I often give advice on how best to interpret what they're seeing on their own screens. Perhaps to some degree they're able to bumble along ignorantly with a little more ease, I don't know. There's so little in it, though, I chalk it up to people trying desperately to exaggerate the positive experience they get with the very average software they're running on their very lovely hardware. All backed up by the indisputable fact that when you buy Apple, you're invariably buying premium, when most who buy PC invariably buy cheap crap and get what they pay for.

    Of course I mean absolutely no offense to Paul at all, so please don't take anything I say the wrong way - this isn't an emotional topic for me. If one day someone can show me why I should be using OSx after all, I'll gladly concede victory and move over. It may still happen. I like their hardware, I only need an excuse, I suppose.

    You make reference most specifically to security. It's a classic claim, and in my experience a classic misconception. You can of course making a compelling argument that people are generally safer using OSx. But that doesn't mean it's more secure. Backed up by the essential evidence that independent researchers have consistently reported that OSx actually has more critical security issues than Windows (don't ask me for references on the spot, but a quick search will reveal enough, I have no doubt. I read at least one article during late 2013), it's worth making an attempt to really understand the possibilities.

    I should really make it clear that I accept the possibility that it *is* more secure. Trouble is, while that's not what they're reporting, it's also quite clear that the primary benefit Apple has is that there are so few people using their software by comparison, malware developers simple don't bother targeting them. No bad thing. But that's changing now - I'm sure you've seen the reports that in recent years Apple have finally started encouraging their users to invest in Antivirus software.

    I think the truth is that if Apple ever gain a majority market share, then we'd see what they're made of. Then their little empire would start falling down like a house of cards, and they'd have to start thinking much more seriously about security. I doubt they really want it, to be honest, and people certainly aren't all going to start paying the "Apple tax" in droves, so their market share is likely a direct result of their premium nature.

    If Apple got that much attention, I honestly believe they'd evolve into Microsoft and eventually people would realise MS are the way they are for a damn good reason - because they're responsible for so much more.

    Taking the focus from security, iTunes is widely consider rubbish, though I don't have *much* first hand experience that. Safari - probably the worst browser available, though I'm sure the Windows version is vastly inferior to the OSx version (as with iTunes, most likely). Mac Mail is the worst mail client I've ever seen, possibly excluding Thunderbird which is certainly more capable on paper. Entourage/Outlook is the best mail client, and that's from MS. Fortunately most people don't need a mail client these days, much less OSx users who tend to be of a more... simple variety (in my experience, no offense intended).

    Ultimately I think it's a hard sell to get anyone on either side to switch. Except that more ignorant punters with money will be swayed by the premium hardware from Apple, and then search their souls for ways to justify the software, which I reiterate isn't "bad", I just don't believe it justifies itself. While Windows may be a more 'rough' environment by nature, it's certainly no reason to accuse MS/Windows of being inferior. If people understood the situation more clearly they'd understand that there's nobody doing a better job on either side. OSx is what it is and the developers react according to the threats. I wager that OSx is laughable insecure compared to Windows and if all the malware was ported we'd all have a laungh. But what does it matter if there simply isn't any malware? It all comes down to which system you'd rather be using, and I don't think you can really cite any solid reasons not to use Windows.

    I use Windows exclusively and I don't have any security concerns. Never pick up malware. I only ever run MS Security Essentials which isn't even rated that highly in comparison to other offerings. I'm an advanced use and I know how to avoid it I suppose. If anything that's one less reason to worry about moving to OSx, which has nothing to offer me in return.

    I've ranted too long. Apologies - but I've got to post it now or I'll hate myself.
    • Speaking as one with security certifications, Windows has come a long way, but prev. versions of Windows earned the reputation as being insecure. Any OS can be improperly configured, and any machine can be hacked (yes, even Macs), but Windows requires more ports to be open, and although the latest version has no critical vulnerabilities (last I checked), it's really hard to trust a company whose security decisions literally became text-book examples of what *not* to do. It's the classic "Cathedral vs. Bazaar" coding debate, and although I fully agree with you re personal preference, I think the evidence overwhelmingly shows that the open-source "bazaar" model of coding has the clear advantage when it comes to security -- thus there have been fewer serious exploits and shorter fix-times for any Unix variant (including OS X) than any version of Windows.
        • 3749
        • 24,544 Posts
        I usually avoid religious issues, but as long as the OP has hijacked his own thread ( wink ), I thought I might as well put in my two cents about the Apple versus PC issue. My brother has done statewide tech support for many years in education, where there are plenty of both kinds of computers. He insists that in virtually all respects, they are pretty much equal. Equally easy to set up and learn to use and equally frustrating when it comes to things like networking and wireless printing. It's the only hard evidence I have on their relative merits and I find it fairly credible.

        I will say that I think the original Mac was a pretty inferior product, with its one-button mouse, tiny screen, and completely inadequate keyboard. It was also pretty expensive. People who bought one experienced a fair amount of cognitive dissonance and began to rant irrationally about how superior it was (one colleague of mine actually said he liked how it modeled the human mind). They did this in much the same way that a person who buys a piece-of-crap car proceeds to give it a name and brag about how much personality is has. I believe this was the main driving force behind the Apple mystique (that and Apple's magnificent marketing strategy).

        As for the brilliance of Microsoft's code, any coder worth his or her salt who has used MS software for any length of time has deduced the total crapitude of its architecture. It's been almost a quarter of a century and they still haven't completely solved the MS Word Master Document problem -- something all serious Word users desperately need. Use it, and you risk total corruption of your work. Their decision to make the paragraph the prime object in Word and put all formatting information outside of the text instead of inline crippled it for life. Just backspace across a paragraph mark and watch things blow up in your face. If it weren't for "undo," Word would be utterly unusable. WordPerfect was an infinitely superior product in every way (give me "reveal codes, or give me death"), but unfortunately, it wasn't sold by an operating system vendor.

        I have another relative who works as a programmer for a big-name software firm in a position that allows him to actually see the innards of various MS products. I asked him, "is the code as bad as I think?" and he replied, "No, it's infinitely worse than you could imagine."

        Over the years, I've also come to find the long-running Ford-vs-Chevy-style religious debate about the two platforms kind of tedious.

        As for Internet Explorer -- don't even get me started. wink
          Did I help you? Buy me a beer
          Get my Book: MODX:The Official Guide
          MODX info for everyone: http://bobsguides.com/modx.html
          My MODX Extras
          Bob's Guides is now hosted at A2 MODX Hosting
          • 36416
          • 589 Posts
          Quote from: smashingred at Jan 23, 2014, 06:44 PM
          An update to this conversation, we're in the last stages of migrating the issues from bugs.modx.com to GitHub. Creating Milestones for each of the projects requires those issues being in our GitHub projects. We will work to improve the flow of information about ongoing efforts. It is very important for the health of the project as a whole as well as for the continued confidence people have in MODX.

          Will this migration include Evolution milestones (assuming Evo tracker will be migrated too)?
          • Eoler,

            Evo will be migrated to GitHub as well. New issues have been posted there and existing ones will be migrated along with Revo, xPDO and any other OS project the MODX team oversees.
              Author of zero books. Formerly of many strange things. Pairs well with meats. Conversations are magical experiences. He's dangerous around code but a markup magician. BlogTwitterLinkedInGitHub
              • 36516
              • 179 Posts
              I may be wrong, but I seem to remember one of the IE issues I had more recently prevented me from being able to insert images into the standard RTE. The 'insert image' popup would appear, but when actually clicking 'insert' nothing would happen. In the past I've been able to put IE in a different standards mode, usually IE8 to fix Evo issues, but using IE11 I seem to remember nothing working. I needed FF to get things done.

              I'll switch back to IE right now and see how I get on. I'll report specifics when possible.
                • 36516
                • 179 Posts
                A problem with popups I've just experienced, using IE11 on Revo 2.2.11, something I remember happening a few times previously:

                In this specific case I was using form customisation. I've created a new 'Profile' and when I click the 'Create New Set' button the popup appears so far off the top of the screen I can only see the 'close' and 'save' buttons at the bottom.

                Switching to IE10 mode doesn't solve the problem, but IE9 mode does and the popup then appears in the centre of the screen as expected.
                  • 22840
                  • 1,572 Posts
                  Hi Dave,

                  Can you report any bugs on the Git account as issues just get lost in the forums and never resolved.

                  Just give as much detail as you can, IE: browser version, MODX version and steps to reproduce it

                  https://github.com/modxcms/revolution

                  Thanks
                    • 36416
                    • 589 Posts
                    Quote from: smashingred at Jan 24, 2014, 12:19 PM
                    Evo will be migrated to GitHub as well. New issues have been posted there and existing ones will be migrated along with Revo, xPDO and any other OS project the MODX team oversees.

                    Great job with the Revolution issues, we need a bit of Evolution love before 1.0.13 release wink
                    Maybe there's no need to migrate milestones from Redmine, I don't think they're that relevant anymore...?
                      • 36516
                      • 179 Posts
                      Quote from: rethrash at Jan 16, 2014, 02:00 PM
                      Hey Dave, thanks for bringing up a very important topic. You're entirely right with your feelings. You're definitely heard and your feelings basically track with ours. We'll get back to you here shortly, but I wanted to quickly say thanks for taking the time to write such a well-reasoned, detailed post.

                      So this is essentially a *BUMP*, but justified I think, as it's been 5 months and unless I've missed something, or completely ignored new discussions about development progress, it seems to me this discussion had no effect at all. I'm seeing absolutely no feedback. I also see nobody else "complaining" which makes me wonder if I really have just missed something.

                      Couldn't the devs start some kind of blog so we have some idea where they're channelling their energy? I logged into github and I see there are changes being made all the time. Is there some colossal in the works? Perhaps an imminent release after all this time?

                      The worst case scenario is that we're all flogging a dead horse and the devs calculate that it's best not to actually announce it for fear it'll completely die before someone eventually finds the time in their legitimately busy schedule to return to the project.

                      I don't think that's true, and I still wonder if all the effort is being erroneously pumped into the Modx Cloud. I mentioned before that I believe it's too early for that, that Modx isn't mature enough (the UI, at least), but of course I could be wrong and you guys might be making a pretty penny and have reason to worry about this end of the stick anymore.

                      My sentiment hasn't changed. Still love Modx and await eagerly 2.3 with the hope that the UI will receive the TLC it desperately needs. I had the displeasure of testing a client's site on an iPad Mini the other day, and discovered - at least for v2.2.10 - that scrollable panes are unscrollable (including the resource tree), rendering it unusable on Safari Mobile from what I can see. v2.2.14 still messes around in IE, but holds up just enough that you might be forgiven for thinking it's fine unless you actually commit to using it regularly. I reported bugs on github so I hope they'll get addressed.