Rethinking MODx

Uncle, no need to shut up, everyone should post their opinions, else no one knows what’s going on

What you said; the documentation isn’t neccesarely bad, in fact, it’s very good for development. But for people that aren’t too developing-like (yet?) it’s pretty hard to get started with the basics. A post I just came across, this one, pretty much explained what I thought, MODx is great to develop things, your creativity is the limit, but that’s also directly a negative point
Theres a few initiatives such as the MODx Package Installer to make MODx easier and more accessable for less techy people, but I personally think it would be very good if MODx came with a simple Wordpress-like frontpage with comments displayed, so people got a good place to start. Right now the demo installation comes with an ’Add Blog’ page, but theres no comments enabled by default nor is there anything of it displayed on the frontpage, while that might be the most common thing for hobbyists using a CMS for their webpage

And to reply to the new signatures of quite some staff here; why does MODx have to be aimed (or as I view it, narrowed) towards ’real’ developers? I would personally choose for an Ubuntu-like goal; "A CMS for real people", after all that is a big public and doesn’t neccesarely have to mean limits on the capabilities of MODx.

Well, that was my opinion, it’s not really fitting in the topic, besides all those superlong posts, but I hope it’ll contribute some

I personally think it would be very good if MODx came with a simple Wordpress-like frontpage with comments displayed, so people got a good place to start.

Start what? The demo content in 095 includes blog + comments (though not on the front page). 0.9.2.1 also included comments ...

MODx is not a blogging platform, though it can certain be used to build a blog. We’re still firmly focused on being a development framework more than anything else. It’s what we MUST do right now as we work though putting an incredibly robust set of legs under it that will scale and that actually should be both simpler and more flexible.

Quote from: rthrash at Nov 05, 2006, 07:40 PM

Start what? The demo content in 095 includes blog + comments (though not on the front page). 0.9.2.1 also included comments ...

MODx is not a blogging platform, though it can certain be used to build a blog. We’re still firmly focused on being a development framework more than anything else. It’s what we MUST do right now as we work though putting an incredibly robust set of legs under it that will scale and that actually should be both simpler and more flexible.

Alright, I should’ve checked that better, I didn’t view the 0.9.5 demo content as I just upgraded, can’t remember any comments either, I’m sorry for that.

You might be right about the current goal, a good base is also required. I also like the "We’ll move towards less technically-experienced users – and create better documentation – in the future, but we have to focus on getting it right first!" part of the signatures also, didn’t notice that part earlier

LeftBlank, I sure agree there are plenty to do for MODx become user friendly for non experienced users, but as the team keeps saying, MODx right now is aimed to the more experienced, and for them I still think the docs are pretty ok.

There is in my opinion a danger in getting lots of newbies (as me) to fast. For example, this forum will not stay as friendly when to many newbie questions fills the forum. It will be as it is in the Mambo forums, lots of irritated people asking the same questions without answer.

I think it would be made clearer for those downloading MODx what MODx is *not*. I also saw that post, and I saw a similar yesterday. If they got a "warning" they would know what they are in to.

Before being able to download there should be a polite warning telling what’s required to manage MODx, and also what MODx is not, i.e. DW and WYSIWYG.

Quote from: Uncle68 at Nov 05, 2006, 07:49 PM

Before being able to download there should be a polite warning telling what’s required to manage MODx, and also what MODx is not, i.e. DW and WYSIWYG.

Thanks for that! Off to update the README file now

Update: Just added the following--

MODx is ideal for web developers and XHTML/CSS designers looking for a customizable web framework that doesn’t place restrictions on their site output ... a tool they can confidently turn over to their ultimate end-users for day-to-day site maintenance. It’s probably not ideal for web novices-- it’s not Dreamweaver (tm). It’s not a CSS editor (it spits out what you put in it). It’s not a portal or blog or community site (though you can build those in it). It doesn’t ship loaded full of plug-and-play add on modules/extras.

MODx is simply a framework you can build a surprisingly large number of custom web applications, and what we consider to be a pretty solid web CMS that you can use to fly through building marketing websites.

Quote from: Leftblank at Nov 05, 2006, 07:34 PM

What you said; the documentation isn’t neccesarely bad, in fact, it’s very good for development. But for people that aren’t too developing-like (yet?) it’s pretty hard to get started with the basics.

Again, I will contradict that. I am no developper, I have decent XHTML/CSS skills and know very little of PHP.
I had no problem starting up with MODx, not more than any other system.

One thing you have to keep in mind is, learning takes a bit of time, no matter what you learn. MODx basics took me two weeks or so, getting the logic of using snippets for complex purposes something like two months and the rest (pushing the system limit beyond existing code) is the part that require at least a little knowledge of php and it’s true you have to push your limits and get down to learn coding if you need to go beyond what’s existing. But which system does not ? In fact, I’d advocate that customizing Joomla requires far more php skills for basic to intermediate customizing, which is a piece of cake with MODx *without* PHP skills (and frankly, that was a BIG turn on for me ! And IMHO, for a lot of webdesigner who "just" have XHTML/CSS and js skills).

I’d like to fight the idea that you have to be a developper to learn MODx. It’s not that hard. Also, as I said you sometimes "click" with a system (I did with MODx, I didn’t with Joomla and found it hard to grasp), and sometimes you don’t. The logic fits your mental patterns or it does not. MODx will come easier to some, will be harder to others...

Anyway, I think many webdesigners without coding skills will testify that they had no more hard time with MODx than I did... I am not sure saying learning or using MODx requires a lot of experience is true either. I rather think it’s a matter of being curious, not afraid to learn (in this regard, most self-taught people will feel at home I guess), and maybe a little "out of mainstream" thinking

Quote from: rthrash at Nov 05, 2006, 07:51 PM

Quote from: Uncle68 at Nov 05, 2006, 07:49 PM

Before being able to download there should be a polite warning telling what’s required to manage MODx, and also what MODx is not, i.e. DW and WYSIWYG.

Thanks for that! Off to update the README file now

The README what??? Is that something anyone reads?

Let me put a quote from the MODx start page:

The Ajax CMS for today. And tomorrow.
MODx is 100% buzzword compliant, and makes child’s play of building content managed sites with validating, accessible CSS layouts – hence Ajax CMS. It empowers its users to build engaging "Web 2.0" sites today, with its pre-integrated Scriptaculous and Prototype libraries. If you’re a CSS designer or Ajax aficionado, this is the CMS for you; and if you like what you see today, you’ll love what’s coming.

After reading that all newbies (including me) thinks they hit the jackpot! "Wow, this must be an increadably tool! Not even DW can do all that! Where can I download? Found it! Downloading...". IF they read the rest of the first page they will get even more exited!

I may be some kind of newbie in webdesign, but I’ve built up an pretty large IT company from the ground up, and I know how people works. If you want to have less people starting to use MODx by "mistake", then you should change the text (or at least add some text) on the MODx front page. It is *not* rude to "warn" someone that MODx might not be for them. It is only fair to give them a chance to make their decision using MODx or not, having the information both what MODx is and is not. Repeat some of it on the download page.

But let the marketing team write it, you don’t want to scare away everyone!

I could of course be totally wrong, it has happend before, believe me!

Sorry for bad English (as usual).

David and I pretty much are the marketing team. We’ve set up a project to review all the content on the site. It’s a different project and while the copy is reflective of the use of the system, it’s probably not fair to explain a bit more for who it makes that a reality.

Ryan and David,

That’s it!. Uncle68 has said it.

The biggest issue is the fact that many of us developers and designers come to the site and get caught up in the excitement and hype of your message. We immediately download the framework and install it and then try and figure how to do what we want it to do. You are not going to be able to stop people from approaching the software in this way.

We all do it.

Part of this approach is to see how easy--or hard--working with such applications is. Some of it is just laziness and some is just that we get swept up in seeing how fast we can implement a new thing without reading a lick of instructions. Any one who has shopped at IKEA will know what I am talking about. You get home and start unpacking and only after stuff stops fitting together do we go for the instructions.

I have begun to read through the documentation and to get more of a fundamental knowledge of using and developing within the framework. I want to make a suggestion that I think may help.

I suggest reorganizing the Documentation in order to take focus off end users and place it onto the use of the framework. I recommend somethinkg similar to the following order:

• Intro
• Install Configure
• Admin Guide
• Designer Guide
• Core Tools Guide (was Core Snippets)
• Editor Guide
• Developer Guide

As you see, I have taken the top level TOC items and organized them in the order in which the MODx might be best learned. This provides a path for learning that doesn’t put editing before learning how to manage and build a site. In addition, I would also suggest relocating tutorials from the top level to sub levels of each section (at the end) so that TUTs are within the category they are for. For instance Admin tutorials under Admin and not just in the larger tutorial guide. This way noobs (like me) don’t get bogged into looking through a bunch of Dev tutorials and get scared or frustrated.

You will also notice that I removed the FAQ’s from the guide as These belong outside a user guide system. FAQ’s are best served at the top level of a site’s support page and not as part of a user guide which is supposed to be static information about how to use the app. If there are Frequently asked usage questions then their answers really should either be incorporated into the main documentation where appropriate.

That all being said, I am currently working through learning more about the ins and outs of development using MODx and will hopefully be able to contribute to the project.

Cheers and all the best,
Jay

Good idea Jay, though I would place the Developer Guide higher in the order (between Admin and Designer). And we’ll add an asterisk to our description with a small font at the bottom saying:

* some assembly required.