Folders vs Documents [was re: 0.9.5 Public Beta 3 support]

As I wrote, I’ve read the thread and I understand the reasoning. However, the referenced lang definition is not optimal. Trying to differentiate between folder and container by saying one can have content and the other not, is pointless: they both can have content. We are trying to say that the folder/container can be written upon, ie be a page in itself.

Since the changes in 095 isn’t that big the change in terminology could be saved for the larger change coming in v.1 thus making the confusion a little less.

Having had lots of discussions with users accustomed to opening folders and expecting it to go to the index file or just show things, I respectfully have to disagree. "Folder" is a bad analogy and most corporate/non-techie end user types aren’t used to thinking about folders in any way other than how they work in the Windows File Explorer or Mac Finder.

By eliminating the term "folder", we force a shift to a new concept without legacy associations. Hopefully it will keep people from having to re-remind content editors and end users about the subtle distinctions between your local filesystem and the page hierarchy in MODx (I think we should loose the folder icon too, and rely on indented page icons for hierarchy). This might just save a few support inquiries in the process (which would be REALLY nice). Also note the description of container includes a reference to a folder. It’s a very subtle distinction that pretty much splits hairs, but one that’s worth making I think.

1.0 will likely contain a true folder type of content that works just like a filesystem on a web server, e.g., automatically redirect to their specified "index" page. This will probably be an administratively disable-able option as well (in keeping with the theme of becoming more simple and flexible at the same time), since you can already emulate this behavior today with [!FirstChildRedirect!] or a custom redirection snippet.

Hello

Quote from: rthrash at Oct 18, 2006, 06:51 PM

Having had lots of discussions with users accustomed to opening folders and expecting it to go to the index file or just show things, I respectfully have to disagree.

As a quite newbie, I do have to put my opinion in this discussion....
I do understand your point of vue... but

* modX allready define a lot of brand new uses of classical terms... all this is very confusing, very difficult to get in
* instead of defining absolute concept, could you define the use they aim to ? it’s would be much more eays to understand/translate ?

as a framework, I’m asking modX to :
* make web pages (writing content or including other application)
* as a redactor, when I’ve got a lot of page of one type, I want to sort them in one "folder" or anything that make me easy to find things I’m looking for
* as a visitor, I’m expecting, when entering such a collection of pages, an "index" or something that let me read either page1, page 2 .... either directly page 5 if I want to resume my reading
* as a webadmin, I may want to developp (in the index page of one collection) special search fonction to make my visitor find the right page the most convenient way for him. If I could find standard index for some standard collection that would be great as I’m lazy
* as any role, as everybody is lazy … I’m awaiting some standard scheme for not getting my brain tired

for conclusion I would say :
[tt]find an aim, build a tool and then define a word for it [/tt]
instead of
[tt]trying to find a definition/word to what is developped in modX[/tt]

Piwaille, please read the thread before posting, you should have posted in the appropriate thread, as Pont was also instructed to...

Quote from: rthrash at Oct 18, 2006, 06:20 PM

Pont, please see the thread where this was discussed in full. http://modxcms.com/forums/index.php/topic,7721.msg54007.html#msg54007

Edit : @Zi : Thanks for moving piwaille’s post from its original location

Quote from: piwaille at Oct 24, 2006, 07:06 AM

* modX allready define a lot of brand new uses of classical terms... all this is very confusing, very difficult to get in
* instead of defining absolute concept, could you define the use they aim to ? it’s would be much more eays to understand/translate ?

MODx is not targeted at users that are not familiar with web development. This means our intended audience is either experienced web developers or technically adept web designers who’ve at least looked at PHP scripts a few times. That’s not to say we don’t welcome "newbies", but we do politely request that they allow us to continue to refine our core and associated add on code before they give much "final" consideration to the fresh out of the box newbie experience. We’ve added many things and are slowly taking away and moving them around for a more streamlined experience.

as a framework, I’m asking modX to :
* make web pages (writing content or including other application)
* as a redactor, when I’ve got a lot of page of one type, I want to sort them in one "folder" or anything that make me easy to find things I’m looking for

Both of those are what MODx does now. If you need a folder/container, just look at the icon. The behavior of the "folders" in MODx is not consistent with directories/folders on a filesystem for Web Servers, nor is it consistent with the behavior of folders in Windows Filemanager or the Mac OS X Finder. Hence the change in terminology. Click the help icon next to the folder for an explanation I hope you find bearable.

* as a visitor, I’m expecting, when entering such a collection of pages, an "index" or something that let me read either page1, page 2 .... either directly page 5 if I want to resume my reading
* as a webadmin, I may want to developp (in the index page of one collection) special search fonction to make my visitor find the right page the most convenient way for him. If I could find standard index for some standard collection that would be great as I’m lazy

It the developer’s responsibility to enable any such behavior. MODx does not make constraints here. You may need to be more firmly in our intended audience in order to pull this off every time, but it’s entirely possible. Today, MODx isn’t for lazy people.

* as any role, as everybody is lazy ? I’m awaiting some standard scheme for not getting my brain tired
for conclusion I would say :
[tt]find an aim, build a tool and then define a word for it [/tt]
instead of
[tt]trying to find a definition/word to what is developped in modX[/tt]

I don’t really understand what you’re saying. MODx development has always been functionality first then a surprising amount of discussion about how to describe things. This may not all be public, but there is a much larger picture here than what it seems on the surface... there’s three different versions in development now (0.9.5, 0.9.7 and 1.0), in fact. Some decisions are based on what is coming in the future, IOW.

If "folders" no longer exist and instead we have container documents, then I think it would be better to swap the folder icon used in the document tree for simply a document icon. I think that using the folder icon increases confusion because it looks like a folder and nothing else. I.e. can’t have content.

Andy

Quote from: ajayre at Nov 01, 2006, 11:55 PM

If "folders" no longer exist and instead we have container documents, then I think it would be better to swap the folder icon used in the document tree for simply a document icon. I think that using the folder icon increases confusion because it looks like a folder and nothing else. I.e. can’t have content.

Andy

Thanks Andy... I’ve been meaning to do that and appreciate the reminder.

And it’s done. Mostly I think anyway.

I’ve just logged a bug for this as I thought it was a bug.
http://modxcms.com/bugs/task/642

You’re obviously part-way through this Ryan as in r1902, sometimes the container icons are folders, sometimes they’re documents , on the first show of the document tree, the icons are folders - it’s only when you expand them do they change to a document.

Feel free to close this bug if need be as I now realise it’s WIP (work in progress )

On a slight tangent, there a couple other bugs in the tree/manager: http://modxcms.com/bugs/task/643

MODx is more of a content management framework for web professionals (XHTML/CSS designers, PHP developers, AJAX developers) to deploy custom-tailored content management systems for their clients without the limitations that come with most traditional open-source content management systems. It’s definitely not an out-of-the-box, one-click web site builder, but it also does not require you to learn proprietary technologies in order to take advantage of it, like Typo3 does. Instead, you learn a few basic concepts and utilize your knowledge of web design and development to more efficiently organize, deploy, and maintain content-managed sites where users can update content based on their individual requirements and skill levels.