Hi Russ
Just when I finished a pretty long post myself I have to jump on the saddle again and answer this one, quite a long and dense post here !
I must say I am always very interrested in your take on things, you’ve seen a lot happen over the years, and the perspective we might lack, you can provide.
Quote from: RussLipton at Nov 03, 2006, 02:33 PMLearning MODx is hilariously confusing IF one doesn’t have a business or technical motivation to jump in head-first. I have no clue whether it will ever get better on that score. I am way more confident about a stable architecture with 1.0 than rich doc. Not saying it won’t, just saying the passions of OpenGeek et al for the former exceed the passion for the latter. What else is new. I consider that a good sign.
As I said above, I guess it’s all a matter of your learning process. I don’t find MODx more confusing than Textpattern, it just has more "degrees of liberty" as scientist say. Every Textpatterner has read those threads where people say they were confused learning the tool (at least, those post were legions back in 2004). I sounds all too familiar to me and I don’t think MODx is really that confusing.
It’s just "non linear" and as you point out, there are many ways to achieve something with MODx. I consider this gives us freedom, and I enjoy this very much, but I might not be a good example since I clicked with MODx logic like I clicked with Textpattern’s.
I don’t think 1.0 will change that, or rather if it changes, it might be in a direction which will make it even more crazily flexible
Quote from: RussLiptonWhen developers are so excited that they can’t help racing ahead with coding because they see the possibility of doing stuff they have never done before, well ... there are worse things. If 1.X freezes that excitement and the creative chaos (a compliment), MODx will cease being MODx.
That’s exactly why I am on board.
Not only the racing ahead, but the out of the box thinking.
Even better, that’s *smart* out-of-the-box thinking because it’s rooted in pragmatism and a boatload of experience building websites. It’s not at all disconnected genius creativity...
Quote from: RussLiptonI see MODx on the other-than-tech side as a powerful tool that is enabling a few (even if few > 50 or 200; I’d guess about 40 right now) professionals to get the jump on other CMS tools for their own clients - and sell competitive advantage to other clients, especially larger ones. Once mastered, the reports of productivity leaps and the ability to create-maintain more complex apps efficiently are consistent.
I think you under-estimate the core base of web professionnal taking advantage of MODx, though I wouldn’t be able to get a fix on a definite number (not that it matters, really).
And once again, consider someone like me : a self taught webdesigner with just XHTML and CSS skills (no PHP there), and I am building my 4th and 5th MODx website in a year, most average sized and intermediate complexity but nonetheless). I had no problem learning MODx and though I can not write code and go to the full extent of customizing, I am doing well and MODx is not a stranger to that.
I think overstating MODx learning curve is not totally accurate. It’s not so hard !
If I can do it, anyone with the same skillset can do the same. Lots of people have decent knowledge of XHTML/CSS these days... the rest is just a matter of taking the time to experiment with MODx. Try, ask, learn... and you’ll be surprised by what you’ll be able to achieve...
Quote from: RussLiptonThese few seem to be plenty-enough to keep the platform moving forward aggressively, to say the least. Oversimplifying (since it is clear they are also evangelists; also smart business), the rest of us are being given a free ride and ’come into the water’ invitation that depends entirely on their continuing to make bucks in their own businesses. I’m not sure MODx now (or ever) needs 1,000s of developers - great fun and confirmation of its quality, sure, and makes it easier to sell projects to conservative corporations but also a big problem. CF doc, training, public image (risks as well as benefits) and the ponderous weight of future success on the development process itself. If they don’t think so now, they’ll learn.
I wouldn’t worry too much about this kind of strategic mistake, in due time those items will be covered as they should, there are things in the hopper or being discussed that are not public as you can imagine
Quote from: RussLiptonPlease don’t misread me. I’m an outsider. These guys continually remind people of their desire for exponentially more MODx users. I believe them. Ryan T. and David M. in particular, but the rest of the core team as well, bend over backwards to make MODx intelligible to dumbos like me - while honestly warning that it ain’t easy.
That’s where we are misunderstood there. Higher number of MODx users is certainly by no means our goal. Volume is not really the real target, but quality is : we want to reach a critical mass of webdesigners and coders to help hone MODx into an even finer product. The real goal is, make MODx better. And it works. Check the new team members. Check the repository. Check the whole forum activity !
Quote from: RussLiptonMODx is too flexible and powerful. Now, we noobs have to decide (and are, daily) whether that is wonderful or a show-stopper for us. Depends on who we are, what we do and, no doubt, our ambitions.
Too flexible and powerful, yeah well it depends for whom... as you say MODx can be a lot for someone who struggles with XHTML or CSS, or simply have a hard time wrapping their heads around MODx concepts.
Now, there are some nice improvements from ScottyDelicious : SkinGraft, makes installing templates a breeze, and the ResourceWizard. Noobs should enjoy those I guess
Hopefully, what 1.0 will bring is facilitate the creation of "MODx distribution", e.g kind of pre-packaged and pre-configured MODx core bundled with extensions and TVs and templates... imagine a portal distro, a blog distro... etc. But that’s another story entirely...
Quote from: RussLiptonTake TVs and the discussion that kicked some of this off. Like most MODx features, it can be mixed and matched with other capabilities in a finite but brain-kicking number of ways - to suit you. Me. Ryan. David. OpenGeek. And all quite differently. I suspect there are fairly advanced users who would only partly recognize (or affirm) the way others are using different commands to achieve surprisingly similar results - the discussion about sections, sub-sections, hierarchy and semantics in this thread is proof positive.
Not only do I recognize it (and did so before you posted, see the post just before yours
), but I am pretty convinced this is a great strength of MODx !
Quote from: RussLiptonIt’s not that it’s all mush. No doubt, there are best practices and an underlying consistency to the architecture, data model, etc. But this flexibility-power is MODx’s inherent design point. It is almost orthogonal to producing comprehensive documentation. Which ’view’ of MODx behaviors should become the fulcrum of such documentation? Who picks? Why? They have a super friendly, competent doc-developer in Susan Ottwell but rotsa ruck to her.
My english is decent, but can’t understand the last few words ("rosta ruck to her") :/
Quote from: RussLiptonLike almost all software but more than most, learning MODx has to be like exploring a virtual world computer game (a Civ or Sims or Warcraft or Second Life). The paths are finite but too rich to pin down linearly.
Funny you’d say that, I have often refered to experimenting with MODx as "playing with MODx" : there is a sense of fun about the freedom that we are given
Quote from: RussLiptonNot only is MODx geared towards highly motivated professionals who can justify the learning curve because they are convinced they’ll earn more bucks soon (enough), but it’s oriented towards professionals with a certain temperament. I don’t see that changing; it shouldn’t change.
Earning more bucks is definitely not what motivates me, and certainly not what motivated me to go through the learning curve.
I don’t think my team mates are in for the money either. You don’t see that kind of passion in money-driven people.
The homepage sums it quite well, MODx was born out of frustration with existing solutions...
MODx enables people to create websites as they envision them, instead of forcing them into a given pattern, and that’s the key.
Creative people like freedom and flexibility, and they sure don’t do creative jobs for money.
Now will I make more money if I meet my client’s need more easily and with more fun ? Well for me it’s a YES
But remember web design is a tough market. You won’t necessarily make more using MODx, but what you can do is win contracts because of it. At least, it was the case for me.
Quote from: RussLiptonBut if I were a young Web professional, I would jump into MODx with all four feet. 100%. 200%.I wouldn’t care whether it ever was popular per se. My gut (what else is new about life) says that the slowly expanding core team - I include the informal core team that provides extra snippets, testing, support, etc - can’t afford to stop using MODx or some descendant for years to come. And why should they? What tool would serve them better?
You can always switch tool. I used to have Textpattern as my favorite tool. In fact my first MODx website was a Textpattern website 90% finished which took me a simple day to transfer to MODx
But yes right now which tool would serve us better ?
Now if things freeze here like they have @txp, and great new tools arise, people will switch from MODx to ElseX if they need to...
But I don’t see that happen any time soon
Quote from: RussLiptonThe cost to me wouldn’t be the risk of MODx coming to a halt, but (yes) the many hours of confusing frustration while I created my own mental map of this virtual CMS world, mixed with the thrill of realizing that I am being given the opportunity to decide for myself the kind of map I want to make. Too much power. Too much responsibiilty. Just enough competitive edge to zig-and-zag with all the Next New Things out there over the next decade.
That’s a bit melodramatic, isn’t it
?
But I truly think those who are betting on MODx are really doing the smart thing
Quote from: RussLiptonThese threads are repetitive but always necessary. I identify totally with those arguing for simple, consistent, clear order-of-magnitude improvements to the learning curve support. I’m certain the core team does too. But it ain’t gonna happen - not now and, I think, not ever. And if I’m wrong about ’ever’, it’s all about now or the soon-now as pointed out on this thread.
We shall see...
Quote from: RussLiptonBottom line, either a noob joins the core team itself (in principle; doesn’t have to be form) over some months, or doesn’t.
In a way, I was a MODx noob when I was invited into the testing team (not even sure I was there for a lot more than a month), your wish might already have happened
lol
Quote from: RussLipton (While blathering, David M. posted his excellent, insider take. That’s a guy who knows his CMS stuff cold as a designer-user in the professional sense of that word. If - still appreciating TxP, EE et al - he says MODx leaves them in the dust, believe him.)
Well, that’s nice of you to say, Russ :blush:
I *am* convinced this is the case, and I *am* preaching the good word around is true.
But I don’t loose track that every project is different, and remain aware that MODx is not the tool for everything and everyone... but it’s a damn versatile tool for sure !