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    • 8164
    • 51 Posts
    Here’s my only concern, and I express this as a recent convert from Joomla:

    If you begin to encourage or sponsor commercial projects within the core of MODx, it will inevitably "bleed away" some of the talent from the Open Source project.

    One of the best examples I can think of comes from the Joomla world. The core developer of SEF on Joomla has a commercial project ($49) that creates human-readable URLs. The question is raised, again and again, on the Joomla boards: Why doesn’t the CMS have this built in? Is it a conflict of interest?

    After all, he has the only game in town -- and it’s for sale only by him. If he puts his functionality into the core (he is a core developer, keep in mind), he’s killed his commercial project for all intents and purposes. Even if his motives are pure (and no one except him can know), the appearance isn’t good.

    I’d think about the cost to the credibility of MODx as an open source project before creating a commercial model for add-on functions. I assure you, it is hurting other projects.

    Right now, most extended functionality is the result of a coder needing or wanting something that doesn’t currently exist. I’m not a coder, but if I thought I needed something, I’d definitely offer to sponsor it if it had commercial value to me on a project. But, if I sponsor something, I’d want to know it would be released under GPL into the community. Next time I needed it, I wouldn’t want to get another license...that defeats the purpose of Open Source.

    Tread carefully in this commercial area...it has hurt other CMS projects, and might hurt this one too.

    Just my opinion...

    Duane
    • What would hurt the project even more though is if the core team can’t support itself comfortably or have time to devote to the project to continue it’s developent. I don’t think anyone has a clue how many thousands of hours have been freely donated to this project by a great pool of people for a variety of reasons.

      This is where commercial support could play a role, be it through hosting services, "feature bounties", commercial job board referal sourcing, commercial niche market solutions or any other number of ideas that work when handled properly. The conflicts like the sill SEF URL thing you mention are indeed laughable, but I’d certainly hope petty things like that didnt’ crop up.
        Ryan Thrash, MODX Co-Founder
        Follow me on Twitter at @rthrash or catch my occasional unofficial thoughts at thrash.me
      • I seem to remember a while back somebody made a custom mod for a client, then later added a similar functionality to the open-source CMS (? I think the guy was the main developer for the CMS, or something like that) they had used, and the client sued. So everyone should be very careful to make sure the client agrees to releasing the custom apps and mods we make for them. I intend to make it a part of any contracts I make.
          Studying MODX in the desert - http://sottwell.com
          Tips and Tricks from the MODX Forums and Slack Channels - http://modxcookbook.com
          Join the Slack Community - http://modx.org
        • Absolutely it has to be clearly stated as to certain parts being released.
            Ryan Thrash, MODX Co-Founder
            Follow me on Twitter at @rthrash or catch my occasional unofficial thoughts at thrash.me
            • 6726
            • 7,075 Posts
            I wasn’t clear if my idea was interpreted as the SEF Joomla example. I never suggested we should have users pay for a module, snippet or plugin. I am pretty much against the idea ! And the SEF thing you mention was one of the things that drew me away from Mambo Joomla...

            What I suggested is for those who do this professionnally, like myself, to suggest clients who want a specific development to agree to finance it and release them as.... GPLed modules, plugins and snippets. Everybody wins here, and in no way should it harm the opensource model (which I am very much in favor of !!!).

            I am not suggesting every module, snippet or plugin follows this model, but some feature could be either very specific or for heavy duty stuff, pretty time consuming / complex : these kind of development is hardly sustainable for devs in the long run. My point is : let’s give them a hand there and let the community benefit from it grin

            The way I sell it to company is have them understand the power of having an open code : security, improvements, free bug testers.... and yes Susan & Ryan, as far as I am concerned I’ll have them sign something clearly stating that they agree to release the work as GPL... That’s the whole idea.

            I don’t know if many companies will agree to it, but it would be great to have this working smiley

              .: COO - Commerce Guys - Community Driven Innovation :.


              MODx est l'outil id
              • 8164
              • 51 Posts
              Ryan, David, et al...
              I wasn’t trying to be *negative* toward the basic idea, and my aplogies if that’s how it seemed. I just wanted to point out the kinds of conflicts a commercial model can create.

              Let me try this a different way. I have a client who will probably need secure instant messaging at some point in the future. My first instinct is to look around for existing PHP projects (I have). The closest to what I need is $2500 for a site license, plus more to create some features I specifically need.

              Would I rather bring this into the MODx world and give someone here that money in order to have a MODx plugin for the next person who needs this (me included)? Yes, I would.

              But, the obvious temptation for the developer is to say, "Hey, wait...I can sell this to 100 websites instead of just one. Cool!" And, the temptation for me is to say, "Right now I’m the only website builder with this function -- I’ll try to sell it to other, similar sites with an exclusive on the function."

              That’s the inherent conflict I was talking about. It’s not casting any negatives, but I think that the idea of sponsored functions that integrate into MODx need to become community property after they’re completed and deployed on the sponsoring site.

              Like many things, the resolution isn’t as clear as the problem...LOL. This is a fantastic CMS...it’s saves me hours and headaches like nothing else I’ve found (and I’ve been building websites since 1996.) I just wanted to sound a small note of caution about some of what I’ve seen elsewhere.

              With all the respect in the world,
              Duane
              • Absolutely agree with you Duane. And eventually even if there is an "enterprising" commercial developer starting to sell a lot of installs, someone will typically come up with an open equivalent that probably will eventually surpass the inspiration in functionality and stability. However, secure IM is a cool vertical application that probably does lean towards what I’d think is a commercially viable option. SEF URLs? Hardly. Still can’t quite get over that one. lol
                  Ryan Thrash, MODX Co-Founder
                  Follow me on Twitter at @rthrash or catch my occasional unofficial thoughts at thrash.me
                  • 8461
                  • 205 Posts
                  What would hurt the project even more though is if the core team can’t support itself comfortably or have time to devote to the project to continue it’s development. I don’t think anyone has a clue how many thousands of hours have been freely donated to this project by a great pool of people for a variety of reasons.

                  And that ladies and gentlemen is the most important point in this topic for me. Eveyone understands the benefits of Open Source, but as Ryan points out there has to be an income somewhere along the line and who is really going to spend 100’s of hours writing commercial level products and then make them freely available to everyone else without ever getting any reward.

                  I for one want to see Ryan and everyone who is contributing 1000;s of hours to MODx to be justifyably rewarded. I think its essential long term and can be done through additional services that will actually ensure MOdx as a free Open source product continues to be stronger. I don’t think there is any suggestion that MODx would be anything other than free Open source software that will continue to get better, but the additional value add services of maybe hosting, higher level support services etc etc will provide the funding to ensure the core team will continue to work on MODx. No one can reasonably expect these founders and key developers to keep doing this for nothing. Donations are one route but how many of the 4000+ members have ever made any sort of donation, yet how many use the software to generate revenue by selling MODx as part of their CMS solution to clients. Who would work for their clients for nothing and roll out a MODx solution free. Even if you wanted to you cannot, bills have to be paid. And most successful Open Source projects have some mechanism of generating revenue for the large user base.

                  The commercial add-ons is something separate that could be bolted in, project management, eCommerce, full document management suite etc. As commercial add-ons they would have to be very well developed products, fully documented and supported. These would take a significant time to develop and would be much more than a new snippet. Overall I don’t think such commercial level add-ons would stop developers adding new features etc to the core code, indeed these people would have a greater vested interest in helping to ensure MODx was adopted and used by as many people as possible as that increases the market share and therefore the opportunity to sell more commercial add-ons etc.

                  If there were a handful of commercial add-ons, reasonably priced and fully integrated that would mean I could offer my clients a wider range of solutions I could sell more systems, and of course that means another MODx client also. If someone using MODx was not prepared to buy these, they have lost nothing and what’s their alternative then? Would you spend 1000’s of hours writing the module your client wants, will they pay for all your time and will they then be happy to say "Although its cost me £5000, you can add this to MODx so others customers, maybe our competitors, can have it for nothing, I really don’t think so.

                  Duane make a valid point with IM, but if you can get more than one sale, then software that costs $2500 should be say $399 for each customer on a commercial basis and that a win win. If they were gready, some else will spot the opportuntity and sell it commercially for $399, providing there is market demand, competition in this way is healthy for everyone and keeps prices down and functionality up . Of course, if something then comes along that is Open Source, free and better, then everyone will use that... until there is something better...

                  I love that this topic is debated in open on the forum and I hope that it will lead a working out a satisfactory and beneficial model for everyone involved in this great product in the near future.
                  • FWIW, I’m in no hurry to come up with a commercial solution, but do enjoy the intellectual discourse. smiley

                    I do anticipate there will eventually be "evil capitalist" things around MODx, but there will always be unlimited and free core functionality and features. Much more so than there even is today in fact! So if you like the free stuff today, you’ll LOVE the free stuff tomorrow.
                      Ryan Thrash, MODX Co-Founder
                      Follow me on Twitter at @rthrash or catch my occasional unofficial thoughts at thrash.me
                      • 32241
                      • 1,495 Posts
                      Quote from: rthrash at Mar 09, 2006, 09:26 PM

                      FWIW, I’m in no hurry to come up with a commercial solution, but do enjoy the intellectual discourse. smiley

                      I do anticipate there will eventually be "evil capitalist" things around MODx, but there will always be unlimited and free core functionality and features. Much more so than there even is today in fact! So if you like the free stuff today, you’ll LOVE the free stuff tomorrow.

                      If I get this right, are you saying that the core system of MODx will be guaranteed to be 100% free, even though MODx come up with a commercial solution to support foundation and core members?
                      If that’s the case, I will personally agree to this. Considering the flexibility of the system, there will always be someone who will build an addon for MODx and charge certain amount of money for it. If the community is really active, I believe there will always be a open source addon similar to that commercial product. The way how I see it, we will reach to the point like Joomla, where the amount of option for choosing an addon for MODx will be a lot, starting from commercial to free. In fact, with this type of system, it will resulting in a better addon, because of this healthy competition between both product (just like what edge mentioned in his post).

                      Another input from me. If we have enough income to the foundation itself, I can see no reason for the foundation to reserve certain percentage of it for supporting the development of free addons for MODx. A good example will be firefox, which we can see that they do earn some money, but because of the root vision from the founder, the software is still free; in fact, they make one of the best browser out there. I would love to see this kind of commercial model, which doesn’t hurt the core developers, as well as the community.

                      Regards,
                      Wendy Novianto
                        Wendy Novianto
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