Jack of all trades, master of non - reflexion

...this could be the slogan for most cms-wares. Look at Joomla... no subcategories. If a real package whants blogers, they should keep them happy... WordPress call itself a complete blogware, but still recent post /comments must be done via plugins.

I think that the web and cms have grown so much that no pack can do it all. So, then it’s best to focus on some areas and try to get to the top in that area /nisch.

Last... Many app’s build on the idea to be basic with some prepared plug-in-areas. But, why not the opposite? "Plug-outs" If there is some kind of stability problem one could plug-out not used tools. Great!?

Intersting observation! How do you see this relating specifically to MODx?

Yeah I agree with Ryan, interresting discussion !

If I understand what you mean : people don’t want to bother having to install plugins/modules/snippets, configure them, they just want to use one tool which is cut for the job they want to do. According to you, that also means every application has to focus on a niche where they are better than the competition, and where they meet a given target’s need. In a way, what you say is : "don’t try to be everything to everyone, but try to be the best for a given user target". That makes sense.

Yet I think MODx strength, where it stands out, is that it can be "different things to different people". Why ? Because it has a light core which is built with modularity in mind, it allows modules/plugins/snippet writers to expand MODx while maintaining a high level of integration (e.g, modules/plugins/snippets integrate seamlessly into the application : take the exemple of quickedit). If I am not mistaken (I am no coder), the API gives them a tool to expand MODx while maintaining coherence with the core code. That’s why you read MODx is a framework, not a simple CMS.

Your plug-out concept is fuzzy to me : if you mean having a bigger core, that’s probably not a good idea because it’s harder to maintain and improve (a bigger boat takes more time to turn ) . If you mean having bundled modules/plugins/snippet (like MODx has) that can be turned off for those who don’t need them, then I agree. That’s where the framework comes into play

(Guys, correct me if I am wrong, as I am outside my skill range here...)

Quote from: blogplus at Jan 18, 2006, 12:37 PM

I think that the web and cms have grown so much that no pack can do it all. So, then it’s best to focus on some areas and try to get to the top in that area /nisch.

I tend to disagree, not all users are the same and to direct all your attention into one area, means the product becomes so specialized only handful of people will use it, and thats not good for development.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t have a focus or direction, but to limit it only to that direction and exclude all other possibilities seems counter productive

Quote from: blogplus at Jan 18, 2006, 12:37 PM

Last... Many app’s build on the idea to be basic with some prepared plug-in-areas. But, why not the opposite? "Plug-outs" If there is some kind of stability problem one could plug-out not used tools. Great!?

Quote from: davidm at Jan 18, 2006, 03:09 PM

people don’t want to bother having to install plugins/modules/snippets, configure them, they just want to use one tool which is cut for the job they want to do.

I’d rather have a small lean core code that is stable and easy to maintain and fix than to have tons of bloated code which performs functions I don’t need, that might just be the piece of code that causes crashes. Just look at Microsoft and Symantic, everything they buy out ends up 3x larger and 10x slower.

The fact that I can install / create snippets and plugins to perform tasks I want is great, and whats better is that if you don’t have a use for them, yo don’t need to add it to your system.

Quote from: davidm at Jan 18, 2006, 03:09 PM

If you mean having bundled modules/plugins/snippet (like MODx has) that can be turned off for those who don’t need them, then I agree. That’s where the framework comes into play

What always concerns me is that when you install this kind of software (no CD) and you get the option NOT to install stuff, it means the code is still there somewhere, its just not presented to you. Of course it could be stored in a separate file but you still have to download it and use up disk space storing code your not using.

I like the repository / library idea, where I can go and install what I want and you can get what you want, thus it can be everything to everyone.

The only risk I see with the repository is you get plug in overload where ever one shares their snippets / plugins and its like a sea of choices. Half of them are almost the same and the other half would have benefited from a collaborative approach to make one decent snippet.

Anyway thats my ramblings on the subject.

In summary, I went to open source applications like MODx because they are more flexible and can be made to suit my individual needs and I’m not just another categorized consumer

Quote from: briggsys at Jan 18, 2006, 03:50 PM

In summary, I went to open source applications like MODx because they are more flexible and can be made to suit my individual needs and I’m not just another categorized consumer

Same here

Exactly what I was saying.

Little clarification : the first part of my message was reformulating blogplus POV, not mine...

Hemm...

I think I should’ve agreed with everyone’s comment regarding this subject.

But one thing to note though, it will be great to have an easy installer package that can include certain snippets, modules, plugins, and etc. One thing to note though, I do realize we can package MODx in certain way and release it, but wouldn’t it be nice to have some kind of installaer system, so fo rexample, when we ship MODx, we have the core installer and system on the package, while the rest of the addon will be shipped differently. SO when I want to install blog, I will need to download a core system installer, as well as blog packagae for example, then I upload both of them to the same folder and run the modx standard installer, and all the resources inside the blog package will be added to the fresh installation of MODx, then the end user able to use it out of the box as a blog software.

WIth this, we still able to have MODx to have a light core, while the rest of it being handled by the resources package, which I think resources in MODx is quite powerfull to make the whole system of MODx looks as if it’s a different CMS system. We can in fact disable the manager part and put everything on the front ened with resources capability. All that we need is to have the package installaer that works either on-the-fly while the system had been installed, or the installaer package will install the whole module package during fresh install.

Hope I get my message accross.

Note: I think this idea had been discussed before.

Regards,

Quote from: davidm at Jan 18, 2006, 03:56 PM

Quote from: briggsys at Jan 18, 2006, 03:50 PM

Exactly what I was saying.

So you found your category.

Lets say you make the perfect cms for mid level webloging christian theologiests and amateur theologists. You could probably get 1.000.000 mid level users. Now... say one more time that it is a must to keep everyone satisfied to get users!
...or a portal-cms only aimed towards soccer clubs. Fast calc gives >20.000 amateur clubs in the western world. Rightly prepared half of them would get that special cms in a twinkle.

The only software that must not do this is the ones that get somekind of reputation or upper hand early... and perhaps MODx have done that. But, look at the web. It’s also crowded of cms and blogwares that will die a scilent death just because it was never #1 for anyone. Allways second or fifth...

In a close future >1% of 4Billion will blog or cms. If one plattform needs, say 10.000 users to live, then it’s room for 4.000 plattforms.

Any dedicated author can make a "hit platform" today, even if not very skilled. Just stick to 1 small area and react on all user wishes aimed towards the main segment. Keep going with focus and you bee #1 in a year or two.

MODx will not be an out of the box All-In-One solution for developers. There will be times when a developer will be looking for something that MODx might not have at the time he/she needs it but that does not mean that it can’t be done. The architecture of MODx will allow developer to extend tht e system to fix his/ser needs.

So I think you can call it "Jack of all Modules, master of the CMS."

I think you got entangled in quotes, ended up posting in a blockquote...

Quote from: blogplus at Jan 18, 2006, 07:01 PM

The only software that must not do this is the ones that get somekind of reputation or upper hand early... and perhaps MODx have done that.

I am no authority but I would say it has...

Quote from: blogplus

But, look at the web. It’s also crowded of cms and blogwares that will die a scilent death just because it was never #1 for anyone. Allways second or fifth... (...) Any dedicated author can make a "hit platform" today, even if not very skilled. Just stick to 1 small area and react on all user wishes aimed towards the main segment. Keep going with focus and you bee #1 in a year or two.

Not sure you’re right. There are plenty of cms, blogware, galleries and such on that we agree, but some are not that good and don’t die at all. People must be satisfied with them, even as limited/complicated/bloated/rigid/whatever as they might be.

As we said before, users are hard to categorize, because the end user "market" is fragmented into tiny bits. There is room for different tools, that’s where I agree with you on the "niche" aspect. It’s not "be n°1 or die", I don’t think so...

Look at the current number ones (or should we say, most widely used), they’re not necessarility the best tools in their "segment" (if there is such a thing)...

Quote from: davidm at Jan 18, 2006, 07:31 PM

Look at the current number ones (or should we say, most widely used), they’re not necessarility the best tools in their "segment" (if there is such a thing)...

Should I say it’s all depends on the way how the community market their product

I like the way google do things though. They don’t spent a lot of money in marketing a bluff product spec, while they just keep loayl with their current users/members, and when their loyal users/members satisfied with what they offer, then google start booming without marketing a false spec on their product, instead they let their own market to explain their products.

Should I say that MODx is like Google? We might not be the first to pioneer the CMS, but we might be the unique system that offer a qide range of power to web developers out there, without sacrificing the needs of the designers/end users who knows nothing about programming.

This uniqueness is not currently acceptable by the public, just like that day, when Google plan to have the best search engine on the net, but a lot of dot com company believe with portal and directory system. When the time comes, it’s when Google start booming as if they are just being lucky to discover the best search engine on the web, even though the fact that they have been working on it for the past 2 years in improving the system, while nobody take notice on it.

I believe there is time, when peple will take notice on us, and they will start accpepting the standard that we have in MODx, rather than comparing us with the other CMS system standard.

So for all of you who have been involve in this community, I woulld personally to ask you guys a favor to help make this community better. I believe all the guys behind MODx core team are a good guys, and they have the will to make this CMS (or should I say it CMF?) a lot better than what we see right now.

So lets work together guys! I’m nobody in here, but I know that I’m not making the wrong choice here. If I found something bad that needs to be fixed, I’ll figure out my way to fix it. It’s either knocking on Core Developers’ email and asking them to fix it or I’ll try my best to fix it myself, and I usually ended up messing it up though. lol

Sincerely,