What are your thoughts on FRED?

No, it's not. Completely unrelated. All that means is that they saw what the MODX 3 project was doing and copied the shade of blue for the sidebar.

It is rather odd that Fred came before MODX3.

An untimely birth!

lol at the sidebar. I thought both copied from https://modx.today/

Our priority is to move the entire MODX ecosystem forward as quickly as possible. We hope Fred will contribute to that.

We also wanted something that existing MODX sites could use today. No one knows yet what the transition from 2.x to 3 will be like for existing sites, and so we wanted to release something that MODX end users and site owners will hopefully get excited about now. (And perhaps it can also bring new users to MODX.)

In the world of CMSes in general, there is also a growing momentum towards visual content builders. To stay relevant, MODX needs a compelling answer on that front. When you use things in Fred like sliders to control getResources limit parameters—and watch the results update live as you're working on content before you save—you start to get a feel for how compelling and fun something like Fred can be.

Fred is entirely useful today. We're rebuilding all of modx.com in it now. It’s so freeing, and we've barely scratched the surface of what Fred will become. When Blueprints ship the next week or so, it will be a powerful tool for theme developers to release things for MODX—another area where MODX has lagged in the industry.

We’ll wind up with far more than 1000 hours in MODX3 when it ships—and we’re 1000% committed to seeing it and subsequent releases ship. The folks that put in the bulk of the hours on Fred have little overlap with the integrator team. And if you think about it, Fred proves that developing a non-ExtJS UI can happen for some reasonably complex content building requirements. Adding grids to manage user lists, permissions, etc., isn't a huge stretch.

Hopefully, our making a big side bet on Fred for the benefit of anyone that touches MODX will pay off for current, previous, and future MODX site builders and users alike.

Well responded!

The folks that put in the bulk of the hours on Fred have little overlap with the integrator team.

Imagine what we could do, together, if they were working on core as well! That's my whole point.

For once, all the pieces to progress MODX3 are in place, with a detailed roadmap, funding, and people to execute it. There's momentum. But the LLC decides to dedicate much more time and energy on a "side bet" with zero transparency or collaboration instead.

That you don't know what the 2.x to 3.x transition will look like says something too... You've been talking about MODX 3 since 2012. Fred is fancy, but not what the namesake company should have spent their time on while the community works on your promises.

@markh is making some points here ... what do the other MODX3 Team members think? What are we to think?

Can appreciate Marks frustration and no doubt others... from what I'm reading though LLC is in for the long game though and Fred is just a side prelude to MODX3 and a lot more hours are to be invested in the modx core. I'm half speculating here though and reading between the lines...

As a long term MODX advocate - to say I’m shocked is an understatement.

FRED is great - and to all that were involved, great job! However as an agency owner, on the front line of knowing what customers/clients want - this is exactly not what MODX needs.What MODX needs is it’s next major release. (Which has been rumoured since 2012). To demonstrate investment in the system, and its future, not a visual builder just because others seem to be doing it...

I have been one of the main backers of the MODX3 project, donating thousands of euros to further its development. To find out 700 hours of development went into something that no one asked for (and personally we would never actually use) - is a bit of a large pill to swallow.

I can’t help but feel that there is and has been for a while, a large disconnect between what the LLC are doing and it’s direction, and what everyone wants of MODX moving forwards.

I hope that a true collaborative effort can be made from all parties ASAP to further the development of MODX3 - and to get it out there! FRED will be a great addition to this without a doubt, but I hope MODX3, and all the work that is going into it, isn’t overshadowed by a visual builder.

Quote from: markh at Jul 09, 2018, 07:38 PM

Imagine what we could do, together, if they were working on core as well! That's my whole point.

There was and is work continuing on everything associated with MODX3 (and 2.7 which is also an important part to merge into 3). I personally can't contribute technically to the major refactoring going on. Nor could most of the other folks that worked on Fred.

It's not an either/or situation; it's both.

Quote from: gelstudios at Jul 09, 2018, 08:42 PM

I have been one of the main backers of the MODX3 project, donating thousands of euros to further its development. To find out 700 hours of development went into something that no one asked for (and personally we would never actually use) - is a bit of a large pill to swallow.

MODX (the company) has not received a single penny of the funding, nor did we ever have any expectation of doing so. In fact, all the funding has been handled by Sterc, going towards bringing folks like Vasily and Yana in to work on MODX3. Jason (Opengeek) is working on MODX3 and related pieces (2.7, package transport infrastructure, etc.) full time, and others on the team pitch in as well.

We didn't blindly add a visual content builder just because others are doing it. We did it because of requests from customers that allow us to pay Jason and others on the team to work on MODX3.


Quote from: markh

For once, all the pieces to progress MODX3 are in place, with a detailed roadmap, funding, and people to execute it. There's momentum. But the LLC decides to dedicate much more time and energy on a "side bet" with zero transparency or collaboration instead.

Oh the irony: we've gone from complaining about not shipping software to complaining about shipping software! lol

We debated making Fred a premium Extra, but in the end, I think it will have a much larger long-term impact on the MODX community and long-term viability of MODX as a platform in general. You can disagree with that analysis, but it's the choice that was made. We will be making premium Add-ons for Fred, so there is a business driver behind it also. (I hope that Redactor is the first premium Extra to support Fred; John can walk you through it quickly for what it takes to make an Extra Fred-compatible.)

The feedback from folks that don't use MODX has been more than positive, but only time will tell how it works out.

Quote from: markh

That you don't know what the 2.x to 3.x transition will look like says something too... You've been talking about MODX 3 since 2012. Fred is fancy, but not what the namesake company should have spent their time on while the community works on your promises.

I cannot change the past, and I'm personally not going to dwell on it. I disagree with your analysis, though, and I'm ok with agreeing to disagree.

Let's move on and see about getting 2.7 and 3.0 out as soon as possible.

I have not tried Fred yet but I like frontend editors so... looking forward to!

However, I want to call out this bit:

Quote from: rethrash at Jul 09, 2018, 05:50 PM

No one knows yet what the transition from 2.x to 3 will be like for existing sites

That is a failing of MODX leadership. There are pull requests for MODX3 that extensively break backwards compatibility, and there are pull requests that don't. When I bring up the migration path in GitHub comments, people either say it doesn't matter, or haven't thought about it. Yet for existing users this is something fundamental, and also core to deciding what goes in the next release.

Having some body - whether the LLC, the MAB, the MODX3 project - set out backwards-compatibility criteria, would prevent wasted effort on PRs, get people pulling in the same direction, and give clarity round the project. I believe the project's biggest problem is it lacks clear, open and decisive leadership.

For this reason I agree with Mark. Fred is a great move to stay competitive against other CMS's, but it's close to bringing new timber into the house before the woodworm has been killed. [ed. note: pbowyer last edited this post 5 years, 9 months ago.]