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  • Quote from: dan971 at May 16, 2017, 08:19 PM
    Yep, WP is not perfect by a long shot, but nothing is. IMO, if we could combine the principles of WP's plugin economy, taxonomies, themes, and the ease of extending the manager, and place it on top of the MODx framework, core and templating system (using preferably Twig), we'd be darn close to perfect.

    Thank you for writing this letter and the follow-up comments. Sometimes it takes someone to break it off to finally destroy a dysfunctional relationship. I'm taking this to heart and treating it as a call-to-action—bold action—that is long overdue.
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      Quote from: opengeek at May 16, 2017, 08:39 PM
      Thank you for writing this letter and the follow-up comments. Sometimes it takes someone to break it off to finally destroy a dysfunctional relationship. I'm taking this to heart and treating it as a call-to-action—bold action—that is long overdue.

      Wow! That is more than I could have hoped for and I am grateful for your response Jason. The disillusionment I feel is mostly as a result of the lack of information and the seemingly slow progress that has been made towards the next-gen. Believe me when I say I was almost fired from my largest client for the stink I put up when they forced me to start using WP over MODx. But times they are a changin' as Dylan once said, and those that don't change with them are inevitably left behind...
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        Well done dansig smiley
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          I've been doing more freelance work lately and every project seems to be Wordpress.

          People love the thing but I can't understand why. It drives me up a wall!

          In no CMS should it take multiple people peeling over dozens of template/theme files just to figure out where some piece of something is being output! Here is some text on the home page, change it. Ok, but it's not in the home page template file, of course, because that is just a bunch of function calls and includes. So I trek down the wicked path of function calls only to find what I think is the right thing, but when I change it, nothing happens.
          So I search for theme configurator, and find something that might work, but it doesn't. Then I finally find a "filter" which is changing it.

          There is so much bad about WP, and I'm not trying to start a debate about it. But when you have to work on established sites, some years and years old, you tend to see the disastrous effects of the system. Plugins that are "locked" because someone somewhere edited the source code. Or locked because if the update is done, it breaks a different plugin. Or plugins that don't respect or check for already-included libraries, and then load duplicate/different copies of analytics, google maps, fonts, jquery, or whatever.

          The complete lack of a standardized template system is always a pain in my side. What you would hope to be a template...a single file representing some kind of page....you won't find. Every "template" file is just a series of more function calls, filters, and action hooks, with the output strewn about in endless `echo` calls everywhere.

          Granted, this could all be due to bad developers or using a poor theme, but that is also a problem. Themes used only a few years ago, already dead, not being updated. Sites based on those themes along with a child theme, can't be updated any more.
          "So just change the theme framework and rebuild the site." - I hear you saying.

          Sadly, no client wants to spend the $$$ to do entire site rebuilds on new themes every 3 years.
          I recently updated a site using X-Theme that was about 4 years-ish out of date. Updating X-Theme broke everything, because they had changed their class names, changed their CSS grid tools and everything else. I had to poor over 800 lines of custom CSS that was now orphaned because the classes all changed and the templates too.
          Even though I got everything ship shape, I could not, and would not, test every last CSS declaration to see if it was even doing anything any more. And thus one minute I think I've performed an "update", only to realize I've sort of created an even bigger mess of useless code that nobody has time or money to sort out.

          I could go on and on for ages, but I must say, I wish something would come along that takes WP off the throne. I want something where a template is a template and a function is a function. A little more convention where it doesn't take 3 hours of research to figure out in what file a particular output is actually happening. I've learned very quickly working on WP to just download the entire theme and even plugins, just so I can do searches across all the files to find some hidden thing.

          MODX isn't perfect, of course it needs some core tech to be updated, and a shiny new manager that isn't limited by ExtJS. But at least when I work on MODX, I can bet that my output is in a template or a chunk, and my CSS is in a CSS file, and things just make more sense. Literally nothing makes sense in WP. Every site I touch I have to research carefully how it was built.

          I loath WP. I loath the fact they create 2 or 3 functions that do the same thing but just change how data is returned. Do you want to get_something() or the_something()? Do you want to get_header() or wp_header()? Why do I need a "the loop" and additional functions to prepare the loop data just so more functions will have the correct data? And don't forget to reset the loop! What ever happened to just sending an array/object to the template engine? No other CMS does this bizarre "the loop" thing. Why does every post meta need its own function? the_title, the_excerpt, whatever?!

          I keep trying, but WP makes no sense how it works, rarely are any plugins documented well or allow themselves to be extended or overridden. Our policy is to never edit core code of WP or plugins or parent themes. So we are left with a constant battle of not being able to do exactly what clients want, because if we edit any core code of anything, it breaks future updates and just makes more maintenance headaches later.

          And don't forget, WPes biggest strength is also its greatest weakness. It's so wonderful because every plugin you can imagine is out there. Yet if you want a good, fast, secure, solid site, you want as few plugins as possible!

          Wow sorry for long post! I have little use for WP except that when sticking to the pure usage and output of common plugins, it's fast to get something done. But other than that, if you're a developer, you'll skip half the stuff that make WP popular and build your own theme and plugins!

          But hey, people keep using it, and then they have to call me up at $80/hr for constant fixes!
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            Quote from: vigilante at May 16, 2017, 09:26 PM
            But other than that, if you're a developer, you'll skip half the stuff that make WP popular and build your own theme and plugins!

            Exactly.

            If you are "stuck" using WP and hate it like I did, build your own theme and start using Timber/Twig. It might even start to put a little smile on your face once you understand how that changes everything. DRY / MVC.
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              Quote from: dan971 at May 16, 2017, 09:42 PM
              Quote from: vigilante at May 16, 2017, 09:26 PM
              But other than that, if you're a developer, you'll skip half the stuff that make WP popular and build your own theme and plugins!

              Exactly.

              If you are "stuck" using WP and hate it like I did, build your own theme and start using Timber/Twig. It might even start to put a little smile on your face once you understand how that changes everything. DRY / MVC.

              Just curious, do you consider MODX not DRY or MVC?
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                Quote from: vigilante at May 16, 2017, 10:32 PM
                Just curious, do you consider MODX not DRY or MVC?

                I didn't say that at all - I thought we were discussing your hatred for Wordpress? I just wanted to provide some advice on how to ease some of your frustration and show you that there are sane methods to work in such a chaotic landscape.

                That said, in MODx, I do find myself repeating a lot of steps necessary to create even a simple site - not that I would always have to do that if I took the time to create a decent transport package from scratch. But trying to set up, say, a simple Blog in MODx with even a semblance of a taxonomy structure, is a pretty involved process. I guess what I'm saying is, it's just no longer the right tool for the work I find myself doing constantly.

                Listen, I'm on everyone's side who is sticking up for MODx, let's make that clear. However, it is time to move forward, and that's what I was hoping this conversation would be a (small) catalyst for...
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                  Quote from: dan971 at May 16, 2017, 07:45 PM
                  Haha, I knew I was going to strike a nerve with some people and I have made the same arguments in the past for MODx over everything else. To your first question Stefany, no reason to attack my competency - I have over 20 years experience as a developer and know quite a few more languages than just PHP.

                  Dude, I just asked you if you knew PHP - most fans of CMS-es other than MODx are usually front-end programmers with limited or no knowledge of PHP. No need to get so defensive so fast.
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                    No worries.

                    I have built a couple sites starting from a blank template in WP just so I could figure out how things work. On one hand, it's not super difficult, just insert a few necessary function calls to get things like menu locations and widget locations and header stuff to work.

                    What bugs me to no end is the "magic". It's the awful avalanche of output that WP produces in the header, and inline CSS, and zillions of meta tags and that we have almost no control over how, where, when any of it is sent.

                    Recently I had a site where, and I still have no idea how, the CSS was all being loaded in the wrong order. My child CSS was loading first, followed by the parent! But then a plugin came next. This meant nothing in my child theme could override the parent or the plugin I was updating. And this meant I needed to splatter `!important` all over the child theme CSS.

                    I have another site where the theme they are using is loading a copy of the Google map API, but the theme gives me no way to enter our API code! So we use a plugin for better Google Map (which does let us enter our API key), however, it doesn't work, because the theme AND the plugin are both loading the API but WP is only listening to the first one without the API key!

                    I've been looking for 3 weeks just to figure out how I can tell WP to NOT load the first copy of the API, but that code is deep in the parent theme somewhere.

                    There is just so much magic. Stuff just appears in the output and takes forever to track where it came from or if it can be overridden.

                    Anyway, again I could go on and on!

                    I actually agree with you only that WP makes blogging easier. And that's what it was designed to be, a blog. What bugs me is that it has tried to become everything else too. Ecommerce stores, forums, community sites, magazines. I find it completely inadequate for these tasks. An $8000 mistake trying to put a real store on WooCommerce told me as much. An entire ecommerce store, as a plugin in a blog... no thanks!

                    The public has this perception that absolutely everything can be built on WP, which is odd. It's like "hey I want to build an app, which is a game, which is like Facebook and Farmville mixed together, with Minecraft" and then someone says "we can probably do that with Wordpress". ARRRG!
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                      Quote from: opengeek at May 16, 2017, 08:39 PM

                      Thank you for writing this letter and the follow-up comments. Sometimes it takes someone to break it off to finally destroy a dysfunctional relationship. I'm taking this to heart and treating it as a call-to-action—bold action—that is long overdue.

                      Is this a serious statement? What have you been inspired to work on or change?