MODx: powerful project for powerful brains. thank you and goodbye.

Hi there, this is my first post on this forum,
thanks for the great work on modx and the documentation!

I administer two medium-profile Wordpress blogs in my spare time, and I am a systems engineer for public radio as my main job. I want to migrate the blogs to a more powerfull cms, and move our radio IT process database (Access at the moment) to an Intranet Web application.
Before installing Modx (everything went extremly smooth!), I installled and spent several days with Expression, Joomla, and Drupal. So far, Drupal (with CCk and VIEWS) was the most promising candidate for the multiple migrations. However, after trying MODx I know that all the other CMS have serious limitations, and I really like the open and modular approach. I would LOVE to migrate to MODx, but unfortuntatly I could not find information which I could decode (I am not a PHP hacker) in the documentations, the Wiki, the repository, GOOGLE or the forum, maybe I am overlooking something, here are my questions:

- for the Blog migration, I need PINGS (letting the aggregators know about new entries automatically), TRACKBACKS (linkbacks to other blogs) and RSS Feeds. I could not find those functions as Snippets/TV´s/Modules in the repository

- I also need Comment Spam Protection like AKISMET, it is protecting my Blogs from 100+ Spams every single day. I could find EMAIL protection, but not comment protection in the repository

-for the Access Database migration, I need versatile FORMS and QUERIES. I looked into the DATA GRID widget, but I could only get DIRECT database filed access, not "relational" access. As a simple example, I have Computers in one table with a field "room name", which contains the ID of another table with the "real" room names". On the Web form I want to show the computers and the real room names, so I want to select the room name by the room name ID in the computers table. In Drupal i can do this easily with VIEWS, in MODx I suppose I have to BIND to a SQL query with JOINS, which is beyond my level at the moments.

I would be very glad if there are easy or medium-level answers to my questions, as I would love to use MODx for those migrations. Thank you for your time,
karl.

reply to myself:

I searched and read and searched and read again, and I am close to the final conclusion for my own humble needs: MODx is great, but one really has to dive into API calls, PHP, CSS, classes, methods etc. to really use it. As easy as this would sound to most of you, is is not something everyone can grasp, the most trivial problems can build up to unsolvable situations.

I think for most "casual" programmers the problems are really simple: do I use (), [], or {}, do I need a space here or there, do I need a dot between this, a semicolon, a colon, do I need double-quotes, single-quotes, slash or backslash etc.. This is different for all the programming syntaxes I mentioned above. MODx seemes to add another layer of complexity to this by using various combinations of nested brackets for its own function calls [{}], [()], [[]] etc.

I know you are fed up (or simply do not have the time) for all the newbie questions, and I can REALLY understand this. But please: do not advertise MODx as a better framwork to be used for people who are running Wordpress, Joomla or Drupal at the moment. I can see it is structurally much better than all of those, but there is no way around SERIOUS coding, as simple examples show:
VIEWS and CCK module in Drupal ( I could create my custom database fields and complex queries in minutes), or the faboulos K2 Theme for Wordpress with the Sidebar modules (I can drag around the order of the modules graphically). I KNOW this "just shuffles around some CSS lines", but would never know where to put all those tags, constructors, ID´s and classes.

I accept MODx is a wonderful framework for Web professionals, and I have all the respect for this group of knowledge-workers. BUT; all the phrases on the MODx Startpages, Introductions and Hype led me to believe one could migrate from Wordpress once you feel "you have outgrown" it, in my case: NO, there is a huge gap of necessary knówledge between those worlds. I accept this and will happily use Wordpres or Drupal. I just regret a little bit the last 14 days where I spent at least 50 hours to figure this out. And I think you would save the MODx team from thousands of redundant questions and unecessary support hours if you state precisely the REAL target group that should use it.

All the best to the MODx project, it is a powerful project for powerful brains.

Karl,

I understand your frustration and you have hit on a number of points and problems with the project. MODx is young and up and coming. The dev team is busy exorcising the last bits of Etomite from the code and the documentation therefore is scant and a mess (though some people get defensive about this comment.)

You are bang on that migrating from WordPress is less than easy but WordPress is a great single purpose app with great support and a community that is exponentially larger than that of MODx.

That being said for those people who have tried to beat WordPress into submission to do things other than act as a blog MODx can be a godsend. Templating in WP is a pain in the ass. You basically end up designing so many views and such that by then end of it you may as well built your own CMS.

You have a complex integration to do and I am sure that you would like to choose the right solution and if you found that Drupal is it then that should be your solution. MODx is not a fit all and it does require alot of wonking in code to make some things work but I have found for the vast majority of projects I have built on it, it is a great app with even greater potential.

Don’t give up, just keep coming back and playing with installs and see what you can do. BTW don’t forget to do an install using the Sample Data. Looking at the Templates, Chunks and Snippets as configured is a whole lesson in itself.

All the best,

Jay

jay,

thank you for your thoughtful comments. I think the documentation is not as bad as some newbies or fresh converts point out in the forums. I do not mind if the screenshot does not look exactly as my install, and I do not mind cross-searching between forum, wiki, respository, main page and general googling. I did two MODx fresh installs last week, one without, and one with the default content, and yes, the content IS important to see it in action and look "behind the curtain".

I just did not think that ALL of the action happens in plain code: MODx is extremly powerful in ORGANIZING your code atoms, molecules and particles, and wonderful in the separation between layout, html/API code and content. But there is no support to create or slightly modify all those snippets, TV´s and modules other than notepad(++). And there is no GUI support to arrange the Snippets and TV´s across the layout, COPY+PASTE (at the right position in the code) is your friend. As such, it feels more like an IDE, like Netbeans or Eclipse to me than a CMS, and, very rightly, you name it a CMF.

I think the problem is not with MODx, but that there are MANY users like me out there, who have an electronic engineering background, work as IT experts some abstraction layers away from plain code, spend 12 hours a day in front of a computer, use a CMS at work, and know some general concepts about CSS, html, SQL, C++, JS, Java. But to find one place where it ALL comes together makes your head go round. Admittedly, maybe I should not even run those Weblogs and intranet databases, but pay for professional services, but those simpler systems make you feel so powerful that you think you can-do-it-all..-----))))))

With MODX, I can see what it going on INSIDE those more GUI-oriented CMS, and I have huge respect now. I will definitely check back, as one always secretly thinks "I can do that", but it could be a while....

Cheers, karl.

Karl, thanks a lot for the feedback, it’s the kind of thing we need to tune our communication to a better frequency

I certainly can understand how you feel about MODx though I do not entirely share your perception about its complexity. But we all come from different backgrounds which explains how we "click" (or not) with the logic of an application.

Personnally, I struggled with Drupal (which logic is not everyone’s cup of tea : Drupal is rather developper oriented) while MODx allowed me to build websites which complex data structure in no time (I clicked with it). I struggled with WordPress templating and preferred Textpattern. This might have to do with the fact that I am a designer and I know XHTML/CSS (but very little PHP). Like Textpattern or CMSMS, MODx is a breeze to template.

But back to the need for an official warning about MODx... at some point Ryan had the following signature :

MODx is ideal for web developers and XHTML/CSS designers that need a customizable web app framework they can confidently turn over to their ultimate end-users for day-to-day site maintenance. We’ll move towards less technically-experienced users – and create better documentation – in the future, but we have to focus on getting it right first! “Newbies” are very welcome here and we love them in our community. But please read the wiki, Google search the forums, learn a bit of PHP and CSS, examine the parameters in the snippet code, and then fire away with questions.

It’s now shortened but it states clearly that MODx is not a "1-click" CMS, and you better not be afraid to dig into its logic to have it do what you want it to. But no way you have to be a developper to do great things with MODx : I know I am a good example of someone with little PHP background who manages to achieve decent things with MODx thanks to its plugins, snippets and modules. As for any CMS, taking things one step further requires to create custom code, but you can take it further than other CMS before you have to dig

david,

yes, exactly, background DOES matter, I never did a template myself, and I am always afraid about CSS, <Spans> and <Divs> (because one little change, and everything falls apart..-). My only trickbag is Firebug in the browser, pointing to the element I wish to alter, trying out values, hoping for some effect, if successfull, I paste it into the (hopefully) right css..---)))). I really do see that MODx strength lies in templating, but all the FUNCTIONALITY has to be hard-coded in the snippets and TV´s as a side-effect.

yes, Ryan´s signature (also in the recent shorter form) is very well on the spot. A real help for me would have been if could DROP snippets or TV´s graphically into the template, copy+pasting the code makes me uneasy (afraid if I paste at the right position in the Layout).
A real nice example are the K2-Theme Sidebar Modules in Wordpress: i can write simple html code in small, isolated windows, name those (=similar to snippets), and then Drag+drop those to the position in the sidebar graphically, or disable those by dragging to the "disabled" column.

But I do understand that a GUI for the layout adds some limitations to the flexibility, and is a lot of work to program. I do understand that the enhancements in the core are much more important.

However, I think the average administrator coming from WP/Drupal/Joomla/Typo3 is desperately looking for some checkboxes/dropdownfields to configure PROPERTIES of the TV`s/snippets, or graphic positioning in the layout. Also, basic Blog Mechanisms like PING, Trackback, RSS feed or AKISMET are not really available in a readily-installable/configurable form.

I will happily scan the MODx webpages in the future, and watch your progress, learning CSS in the meantime, maybe I can switch over in the future..---)))

thanks for your time, karl.

I sure understand the habit/need of the GUI but as you say, it tends to limit flexibility for designers (Textpattern - which I contributed to for 2 years - was confusing also for lots of users coming from other systems). I think that developper are very happy with MODx too once they dig into the API...

Also, the MODx resource wizard is a first step toward a more "end user friendly" MODx (kind of a package/GUI installer for MODx resources = plugins, modules, snippets). I have no doubt that - in time - MODx will offer the same kind of "block / drag n’ drop/ automated" templating with a GUI that other system come bundled with. MODx devs and coders are so talented that it will undoubtedly come up along the way !

Till then, it will target a more "limited" circle of users... in the meantime, it’s a good idea to keep a close eye on us

Quote from: davidm at Sep 08, 2007, 05:58 PM

I sure understand the habit/need of the GUI but as you say, it tends to limit flexibility for designers (Textpattern - which I contributed to for 2 years - was confusing also for lots of users coming from other systems). I think that developper are very happy with MODx too once they dig into the API...

Also, the MODx resource wizard is a first step toward a more "end user friendly" MODx (kind of a package/GUI installer for MODx resources = plugins, modules, snippets). I have no doubt that - in time - MODx will offer the same kind of "block / drag n’ drop/ automated" templating with a GUI that other system come bundled with. MODx devs and coders are so talented that it will undoubtedly come up along the way !

Is this a hint that GUI will be included in v0.9.7 or v1.0?
I am pretty good with design and consider myself an advanced CSS user, and I like Textpattern too. It took me just few hours to make my first simple Modx template that consists of Wayfinder, a few chunks, but I do find that digging in Modx snippets and plugins can be daunting, very daunting actually and scare away people. When I work on Textpattern, I so much appreciate the flexibility Modx has given me to delivery an error free, no extra empty div in the markup’s blog site. I see that the power of Modx lies in its flexibility and many powerful snippets and plugins, but they are also the killers because everything seems unclear and require so much testing in order for it to work, that even an experienced web designer can find difficult at times.

I feel that the learning curve of Modx is very high, so far I have done three simple Modx sites and I feel I am stuck at basic features and not able to move beyond because of lack of PHP knowledge. I am a good learner, pay attention to detail, know where to look for clue, follow examples etc but I haven’t’ been able to make a few snippets/plugins to work Because they are not critical as I am only doing testing/ learning therefor I didn’t want to post question, and actually is afraid to ask because it seems some obvious simple questions (note that this is very subjective: something obvious to people with more knowledge may not be so for other ) go unanswered in the forum, and I get a strong feeling that the only way I want to advance my Modx knowledge, is to subscribe to commercial support, which I likely will do but not at the moment.

I have found MODx to be flexible and challenging and I am not a PHP programmer (I am PHP literate and can write little scripts and such) but I have built half a dozen or more sites on it as it offers better structure, better templating and better management. It is easy to use and hard to learn sometimes. Documentation is scattered and written by programmers who are busy with work and moving the project forward. The wiki has added a new dimension and the forums are a wonderful resource (although hampered by awful search).

The one thing that people new to MODx should know is that it is NOT just a CMS and doesn’t work like the common CMS apps in that it can be a CMS but it can be a catalogue or a portal or a real estate site or a whatever you want because it is designed to be a starting point that can be extended without being bloated or without having to set dozens of parameters or hacking core just so you can use a particular template.

Quote from: chinesedream at Sep 08, 2007, 07:46 PM

I feel that the learning curve of Modx is very high, so far I have done three simple Modx sites and I feel I am stuck at basic features and not able to move beyond because of lack of PHP knowledge. I am a good learner, pay attention to detail, know where to look for clue, follow examples etc but I haven’t’ been able to make a few snippets/plugins to work Because they are not critical as I am only doing testing/ learning therefor I didn’t want to post question, and actually is afraid to ask because it seems some obvious simple questions (note that this is very subjective: something obvious to people with more knowledge may not be so for other ) go unanswered in the forum, and I get a strong feeling that the only way I want to advance my Modx knowledge, is to subscribe to commercial support, which I likely will do but not at the moment.

I think everyone here has their strengths and weaknesses. I’m fairly good at PHP (having come to it from C++) and OOP stuff but I’m often grasping at straws when it comes to cross-browser-compliant CSS or complex SQL. I’m hopeless when it comes to Javascript.

So far, I’ve had pretty much every question I’ve asked here on the forums answered almost immediately--even some very elementary questions. One of the great things about MODx is the spirit of cooperation one finds among the MODx community. People have gone to great lengths to help me solve various problems, even problems that had nothing to do with MODX.

I’m just getting over the hump in getting comfortable with MODx and I’m beginning to convert sites of mine that are working fine without MODx because I see the value down the road. Some are straight HTML sites, some I hand-coded in PHP, and others are complex ColdFusion MX sites.

MODx beats everything I’ve seen when it comes to code reusability, maintainability, and economy. It also kicks butt in allowing you to delegate work to other users without risking any serious damage to a site.

I’d suggest that you ask any questions you have about getting stuff to work, even in a non-production test site. Everyone understands that you’d be crazy to try out a brand new CMS on a live, working site. The folks here are interested in making MODx work for you and the questions you ask will help the developers improve MODx and its documentation. The answers may also help someone else in a critical situation with the same problem.

Bob