MODX Core development team abandoning MODX development as 1st priority? Please read!

Ya that's referring to something else.

Quote from: modxjr1 at Mar 29, 2013, 07:54 PM

Quote from: dinocorn at Mar 29, 2013, 05:33 PM

My thoughts on the re-branding of MODX Cloud to SiphonLabs and why it's a bust

"MODX is a format by the phpBB MOD Team that is used to describe, in detail, changes between web applications suitable for distribution. It is an XML-based format for both MOD writers and users alike."

Quote from: modxjr1 at Mar 29, 2013, 09:53 AM

Quote from: redtoad at Mar 29, 2013, 03:10 AM

*spluttering*
okay. SEVERAL of us wanted to do a "Learn MODX" site and we actually bought the domain modxbeginners.com (which we now have let go) because we were specifically told by MODX we could not use it. So I'm really sort of mystified, is that now suddenly ok?

What a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo nonsense. Bad Marketing again.

I find this very worrying. I'm not even sure it's legally correct, not least as the term MODX predates the company.

In any case, the brand and company MODX shouldn't try to restrict community activity. If they feel that an accommodation needs to be struck where logos aren't used, that seems to me far more sensible than trying to stop people running websites about MODX that promote it.

You need a means to distinguish between MODX the company, needing a Trademark, and MODX the software, which needs to flourish wherever it is found. At the very least you might provide some kind of terms of use (such as a disclaimer and link to the main site) where you recognise use or allow people to use the word in a way that does not associate itself with the company MODX.

BTW there are a bunch of independent sites using the term MODX, should they expect cease and desist letters?

I'm tempted to write to EFF !

Regarding the popularity of WordPress as compared to MODX I would say the following.

One of the primary reasons WordPress is popular with a certain developer group is the quickness of delivering a "typical" web site system by being able to download a template and get launched very quickly.

This is fine if the functionality of the template has what the client needs/wants for a site. For example, a friend of mine needed a site for his wedding. He's a MODX developer (primarily a programmer) but he went to WordPress for the quick template and registration system. He could have done the same type of site feature wise in MODX, but it would have taken longer.

Now, when the needs are not met by this model or you want scalability, both my friend and I agree that MODX is the better solution, though we do know some WordPress developers that specialize in customizing WordPress, but that sort of developer is rarer than the setup and configure developer out there.

Where I think MODX could improve to combat this is in two areas:

1. Offer a download with Extras that are often used
2. Create a Template or Theme "System" (Here me out, it's not as bad as you think)

Regarding the first point which is a download with Extras used often:

I understand the philosophy of freedom. I understand the idea of here is the core, now built extras on it. I understand the idea of we're not going to force you to use Wayfinder for example, you can just use whatever you want, or write your own. I understand that completely.

That said, what other Wayfinder alternatives do people use outside of maybe getResources? Other than using either getResources or Articles, how else does the typical MODX developer build a blog or news section? How many developers use something other than Login and the associate snippets for login functionality?

MODX has a set of great Extras that we, as developers, use all the time. Our standard Extras are:

• Wayfinder
• TinyMCE
• getResources
• UltimateParent
• MIGX
• Breadcrumbs
• Articles
• Login
• SimpleSearch
• Ace
• ClientConfig
• FAQ Manager
• Copyright
• FormIt
• FormIt Fastpack
• getPage
• getResourceField
• getUrlParam
• Google Sitemap
• ObfuscateEmail-Revo
• Peoples
• Personalize
• phpThumbOf

There are probably some others.
Together with some standard TVs we create, combined with these extras, these cover most of what we typically need for a web site.

Including these might indeed influence people to use them but I don't see how including them (and probably a few others) would prevent anyone from having the freedom to make their own version or use something else. Some developers new to MODX might download it and wonder why they then have to download Extras do typical things. Including these might help, though of course, the developers would have to learn to use them still, but this is the case with any software.

Regarding point 2, a Template or Theme "system".

I don't mean like WordPress or Drupal, where you have to work around the system. I don't mean that all all. However, one of the nice things we find with Lemonstand is their theme system, which is simply a collection of pages, templates (called Layouts in Lemonstand), partials (sort of like chunks/snippets in MODX), and files. You have full creative freedom to create and use these in anyway you wish so it's not that the theme system forces you to use certain types of programmatic loops, etc., but it allows you to export and import themes very easily (I will say that Lemonstand's theme system does rely on the convention of having any files associated with it, such as JavaScript, CSS or image files, in folder with the theme name, such as /themes/greentheme/). So in Lemonstand, you can have a main navigation partial called nav:main for example and that partial is associated with a theme, say greentheme. You can also have a partial called nav:main that is associated with another theme, say redtheme. Same partial name, but not the same partial in terms of code.

The reason I bring this up is that in MODX, we often buy themes from places such as themeforest.net, because they have a number of great layouts that our clients like and except for a few clients, most of them don't understand design and don't want to pay for custom design. The templates you can buy on this site (and others like it) are in either XHTML format or WordPress. We buy the XHTML and then we begin the work of converting them into MODX, using the appropriate tags and Extras.

Let's take a home page for example. We'll work on the main navigation by using Wayfinder and creating the appropriate outer, inner, and row template chunks. If there is a slideshow, we'll create the appropriate template variables (ie. image, caption, link) and use MIGX to create a manageable array or each slide of the slideshow. If their are some calls to action, such as 3 or 4, we'll again create the appropriate template variables and use MIGX to create the array of 3 or 4 call to action columns and use If or the revised conditional code to trigger the appropriate CSS (such _last or _first for classes) and of course limit the display in MIGX to 3 or 4. For the contact page we'll use FormIt and some Template Variables to allow the user to set who get's what email and input the addresses and to show a Google Map or not. You get the picture.

We have to do this for every Template we acquire. This takes time, a lot more time then just downloading and installing it like you can with WordPress.

Now I realize that everyone can do things differently, because MODX is so great that way, but if we had the ability to buy a template with all this already done, that would be fabulous. A way to import/export the applicable pages, chunks, snippets, files, templates, access policies, user groups, forms customization rules, and template variables (and instructions to get any Extras you don't have) would be fabulous and might encourage the building of more MODX ready Templates. I know any XHTML template is technically MODX ready, but only ready for you to take and adapt it to the system. I believe we probably do this all in a package with a couple of extras but to be able to call what we've done a Theme and then just import/export it would be wonderful. As it stands now we just keep reusing the same themes we've already converted and changing the CSS to make it look a little different. We run into a wall when a client says I want theme Y and we tell them it's about 10 hours extra work to get it functional.

The moment Lemonstand added a theming system like they have, themes started to be created and sold for it, though no where near the number for WordPress. But such things take time and because Lemonstand isn't free (though you save a ton of development time if you use say Magento instead) I don't think certain developers bother to look at it all.

I figure a lot of developers look at MODX however and see they have to go and download a bunch of Extras they need each time and they can't download any quick themes to start as a basis and say no thanks, and deal with other problems that WordPress presents. It may not be a logical thought process, but it does exist. [ed. note: rx2 last edited this post 11 years ago.]

On Point 1, the problem is that different people will want different components. Some might prefer SPForm to FormIt, EZfaq to FAQManager, CodeMirror to Ace, CK (or something else) to TinyMCE, etc. Remember, too, that many packages have install-time configuration options that will annoy people who have no need for that package, not to mention loading up the database and the Element tree with things you'll never use and have to uninstall through Package Manager to get rid of.

I think a better solution is a server that lists all common extras with popup descriptions (and maybe ratings), and lets you tick checkboxes to download a megapackage to Package Manager that will install them all.

BTW, you can already create your own transport package containing all the extras you want, plus Templates, System Settings, Property Sets, etc.

You can also just add all those packages to a zip archive, unzip it in your core/packages directory, "Search Locally for Packages" in Package Manager, and install the ones you need.

Quote from: rx2 at Mar 31, 2013, 10:35 PM

Where I think MODX could improve to combat this is in two areas:

1. Offer a download with Extras that are often used
2. Create a Template or Theme "System" (Here me out, it's not as bad as you think)

Hi rx2,

Awesome post! I'm neither a web developer nor designer; I use MODX for web applications which is a different beast on its own, and I chose MODX because of the fact it wasn't trying to be a better WordPress.

However, if you look at the community at large, I know that the vast majority of people (99.9%) fit into the same kind of usage as you do.

On your first point, I think that would be an awesome idea. Even without having a special download, I think there's another way of getting the same thing: database backups and restores. If you were to take a fresh install of MODX, download all extras you want, set up the basic site map with resources you want, and then just back up the database to a dump file and then restore it each time. Maybe it's not that simple though. And I agree it's not as intuitive as a download which does this for you. For Bob's comment above (which he posted right as I was typing this) that's definitely another alternative-- transport packages... I learned how to create those with his book, and although it is a daunting task at first, it is ok when you get the hang of it.

On your second point, is there a logical way to take an XHTML or WP theme and put it together in a more automated fashion? I don't mean "is there a tool that does this already?" but rather are there markers in the file (like nested divs?) that would aid in this?

Another whacked out idea might be to create an extra which acts as an installer for extras... with it you just specify a file which includes the extras you want and it does it for you.

So, you have an extra which comes in a transport package whose purpose is to download and install other packages either based on a UI or a config file. Is that too meta?

Some valid points in there rx2. When I first started using MODX Cloud Beta I heard plans for a MODX Marketplace that along with Cloud Snapshots seemed like they could solve some of those needs. For example imagine being able to purchase a cloud snapshot that is complete with theming, settings, even example content and documentation all from within the Cloud Dashboard.

Yes transport packages can be created by other means but the Cloud ecosystem definitely seemed like it opened up some interesting opportunities for MODX sites to become more "theme-able".

I have no idea what's happen with a Snapshot based Marketplace, or if it's still in the works.

And for "that other" alternative to TinyMCE or CKEditor, it's shipping soon.

I don't mean MODX has to come with extras but an option to download MODX with whatever Extras are common (by vote or what have) would be nice. You could download just the core, or you could download Typical, or Blog, or Portfolio, or what have you, as an extra (no pun intended) starting point.

We are aware you can package these, but I was thinking of beginners, who would have no idea.

I am fortunate enough to work with a senior programmer, some junior programmers, some designers, etc., so I understand the power of MODX and will hopefully very soon release some Extras I hope the community finds useful. But the initial learning curve can be very steep.

As a non programmer I have been able to create some fairly sophisticated data heavy sites because of the way MODX works and then go to our programmers for some interesting custom needs but I imagine for a beginner or some one from the WordPress, Drupal, or Joomla worlds might not take it very quickly.

I talk about it all the time to people who use those systems (though I haven't run into a Joomla developer for a very long time personally) and from what they say I see these points as possible obstacles. They may be silly obstacles, or unreasonable, but they are there nonetheless.

Quote from: stalemate at Mar 31, 2013, 11:15 PM

Another whacked out idea might be to create an extra which acts as an installer for extras... with it you just specify a file which includes the extras you want and it does it for you.

So, you have an extra which comes in a transport package whose purpose is to download and install other packages either based on a UI or a config file. Is that too meta?

Not at all. It's on the roadmap for MyComponent. MC will already include the packages and put them in the core/packages directory where you can pull them into the Package Manager grid with "Search Locally for Packages." The down side is that you lose the notification on available updates. I think down the road when it actually installs the packages, that will change.

@rx2: Excellent points. I hope you'll take a look at MyComponent. It's fairly easy to use once you get used to it and it can save you a ton of time when you're creating packages. It's relatively new in its current form (in spite of the version number), so expect a few rough edges.

Reading this thread, I've determined (again) to buckle down and take the time to learn how to use MyComponent. I enjoy porting interesting-looking free templates, and would like to make up packages for them. So since today is a holiday here and I'm not expected to work on my regular job, I'm off now to make a local installation of the latest Revo 2.0.7dev and install the latest MyComponent. The mountain shall labor, and perhaps produce a mouse or two.